Uh when Joe West first originally contacted me here at Stateville Prison, I was on a visit.

The counselor came in to the visiting room where I was at and stated that she wanted me to come out and make a phone call.

I told her, I said, “No way.

I’m here 365 days a year.

I’m not leaving my visit to go make a phone call.

I said, who’s calling? Someone from Texas named Joe West.

Told him I do not know the party.

I said, tell them I’ll call them on my time, not their time.

I’m on a visit.

 

 

 

Don’t bother me when I’m on a visit.

The next day, they come got me out of my cell.

They took me downstairs and got a phone call hooked up.

I called Joe West to talk to him.

I told him, “You have three minutes to convince me why I should talk to you.

” As Joe started talking to me, I told him, I said, “Whoa, stop.

and you’re on a lot of touchy spots.

I said, “These phone calls are recorded.

 

 

 

Every phone call going in and coming out is recorded.

If you want to talk to me that bad, then I suggest you come and visit me.

” Joe West had me put him on his visiting list.

He come up to visit me.

He spent two days up here talking with me.

The first day I wouldn’t even talk to him about the Kennedy situation.

We got into uh sports, whether generally by prison, local things, till I got comfortable with him.

The next day, after I thought it over all night, Joe has seemed like a pretty nice guy.

I really like Joe.

He had a magnetism about him.

The next day, we sat down, we got serious, and then we started talking.

 

 

 

I sit in the dining in the visiting room with Joe.

They gave us a pencil and paper.

I sketched the entire Ley Plaza out for him without any maps, without any pictures, nothing present.

And I explained to Joe at that time cuz Joe wanted to know where was I at.

And I said, I’m going to put an X on the paper to signify me, but this X is not in the correct spot.

I said, when the time comes, then I will put the X where it is supposed to be.

What had you told him to know that he uh that you were on the plot? Pardon me.

What had you told him that Joe knew you were on the Well, I asked him.

 

 

 

He said that someone had informed him that I was there.

He said he had a reliable source, and I didn’t know for quite a while who that source was.

It was quite some time later before I learned the fact that the FBI was aware of my presence as early as 1964 because I never knew that anyone ever knew about me.

But Zach Sheldon, from what I understand, and I’m only quoting this from hearsay, that Zach was the one that stated and gave me to Joe West the information on me that I was in De Plaza.

That’s my understanding.

Mhm.

Did you Did you ever actually confess to taking a shot to Joe West? No, I never did.

Make a statement.

I never I never Well, the whole thing is like with Joe West.

Joe West died.

He passed away never knowing that I was one of two shooters there in Dilly Plaza that day.

Joe West never knew I was on the grassy.

 

 

 

Uh do you have any thoughts on his death? You think that was natural? Joest went in for heart surgery and from what I was told and what I understood that he had come through it fairly well and he was on the road to recovery.

But then I was informed there was complications with his medicine.

He was allergic to it or an allergy or something.

He saw that it killed him.

The medication killed him.

Couple of years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, I heard through a grapevine and I won’t go into the party that brought this information to me.

They said that someone had tampered with Joe’s medication and he had received the wrong medication because they wanted to silence him.

That’s uh that’s for his wife.

Yeah.

Thanks.

 

 

 

Okay.

And why would they want to silence him? We had uh I shouldn’t say we, I will say Joe West had the case in court.

He wanted to exume John F.

Kennedy’s body and that’s what he was fighting for.

And at this point when I talked to Joe West, I explained to him that John F.

Kennedy had been hit in the head with a mercury round, a special load.

At this point, I explained to him he can use this in the courts to have the body exumed because there would still be traces of mercury because the traces of mercury do not disappear.

It’ll always be there.

And so this is what Joe West wanted to go back with more evidence and use this to get Kennedy’s body exumed.

The look chases a mercury and the court had accepted his case.

The court had accepted his case, but with his death, the case died.

Um, do you feel like your memory is as good today as it was say 10 years ago? No, I do not.

It’s not that good.

 

 

 

Making a statement.

Uh, my memory is of 10 years ago was a lot more alert than what it is now.

Uh, it’s not that I’m just getting old and scenile, but it’s the conditions of prison, the conditions that we live under.

Our water here when people come in, and I’m sure you was advised not to drink the water from here, to buy bottled water.

But I’ve been drinking this water for the past 12 years with radium in it.

So is every prisoner here.

We wasn’t aware of the water situation until Oliver Stone come along to make a movie here.

And when he made his movie here, we see all these people from the movie company running around carrying bottles of water.

Even the officers that worked here, they got suspicious.

That’s we started finding out this water is not healthy.

Just as an aside, you know, sodium fluoride is what they put in even the city’s water supply.

 

 

 

That’s what the Nazis put in their water supply in those concentration camps to keep everybody pacified.

Yep.

They keep us pretty well pacified.

And they really kept us pacified since we went on about a 10-month lockdown.

And they took the prison back and run it under their order now.

And I mean this place is really maximum control now.

There is no movement here at all to speak of.

Did you actually meet with Oliver Stone? I met Oliver Stone three times.

Matter of fact, I have a paper that Joe West, not excuse me, not Joe West, but Bob Bernon had Oliver Stone signed.

Now, Bob Bernon come after the Joe West deal.

Bob Bernon took over for Joe West.

Bob Vernon met with Oliver Stone and he had him sign an agreement where they wanted to get me on film, but I refused to do that.

I met with Oliver Stone three times.

 

 

 

And you never told him your story? No, I did not tell Oliver Stone my story.

I refused to discuss it with him.

And uh like I said, I’ve got a copy of this.

I got Oliver Stone signature.

Bob Burn is the only signature on it.

It states what it’s all about.

The only thing missing is my signature because I would never sign that paper for the agreement.

Why was that? I didn’t like the man.

Case closed.

Case closed.

And if you’d like, I’d be more than happy to send you a copy of the document.

And it’s got Oliver Stone’s original signature on it.

And it has Bob Burnon’s signature on it.

 

 

 

Well, I’ve got a raft of questions, but I tell you what, let’s just go back to and and just let’s go in chronology.

Just tell me your own account again.

You understand what we’re really doing here is because that interview you gave Bob Vernon is kind of tied up in all kinds of legal stuff, right? Yes.

And to help you and Pam, we we’re redoing this thing so that we can put that aside and move on.

Okay.

Uh so this is redundant, but let’s move on.

Go back to when you first learned that there was a plot to kill Kennedy and then just bring us forward and how it all came about.

Excuse me.

The first time that I knew about anything being planned on Kennedy, I’d heard a lot of rumors that nobody liked Kennedy.

They wanted to kill Kennedy.

They wanted to assassinate him.

They wanted to do everything to the man.

Were you kind of upset with him yourself or B? Well, I was upset with him over the Bay of Pigs, but I never paid any attention to any of this at first because, you know, everybody talks.

Somebody gets mad at somebody right away and I’m going to take this guy out.

 

 

 

I’m going to take that person out.

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! You know, a lot of lot of barking, junkyard dogs barking, you know.

But I was sitting in the Harlo Grill that evening playing the pinball machine.

Not the flipper kind, the kind of numbers where you gamble on.

You put about $10 in to play a game.

And Charles Nicoleti walked in, man that I did a lot of work with, man that I respected.

And he walked in the back room where I was at, says, “Jimmy, let’s go.

” I said, “I’ll be with you in a minute.

” He reached over and told the machine and said, “Let’s go now.

” My reply was, “Yes, sir, Mr.

Nicole.

” I knew he wasn’t in no mood to wait and hang around.

 

 

 

He said, “I want to talk to you.

” I went out.

I got in his car and we went for a ride.

And we made it a basic habit not to sit around restaurants, talk reals, discuss anything like that cuz other people hear him.

And uh we went for a ride and he told me, he says, “We’re going to do a friend of yours.

” And I said, “Jesus said, “What the hell did he do now?” But I thought this referring to one of my friends in town there.

He had been robbing the pinball machines and the cigarette machines and he had a $1,000 a day heroin habit and he was an all out now junkie and you know they had beat him up several times and everything else and threatened him but so far they had never went for sports to kill him.

Chuck laugh at me and he says no he says not him.

He said I’m talking about President Kennedy JFK.

And I looked at him and I said what? He says JJFK.

He says your buddy.

I said well he just busting you know giving me a hard time but he knew JFK.

He knew how much I disliked the man.

I looked at him and I laughed.

 

 

 

I said, “Okay, fine.

Fine with me.

You get arguments there.

” And at this point, I still kind of thought, you know, he just joking with me.

But then he got real serious about it.

So then we started talking and he told me, he says, “Uh, what I’m going to want you to do,” he said, “I’m going to look around.

” He says, “We’ll search the area around the town here.

” He says, “You know, everything pretty good.

” He says, “And uh see what where we’re going to do it at, what kind of weapons we’re going to need and other things like that.

” He says and he mentioned he said he was going to bring Johnny Rosselli in on it.

Blame him a million.

I don’t care who we work with.

You know, I like Johnny.

I had no problems with him.

And uh originally we had planned to do it in the Chicago area, but certain people didn’t like that idea.

So then we put it off and this is like 6 months before the assassination ever really took place.

 

 

 

But you were not supposed to be a shooter.

Oh no, never.

I was not a shooter.

I was uh let’s put it this way.

I like, you know, the gopher.

I go for this, go for that, pick this up, pick that up, run around, drive him around.

When Chuck went somewhere, I was always with him.

And did you ever get wind that the Secret Service might have uh found out about the plot in Chicago? Uh, no.

I didn’t get no wind on that at all.

No drift.

I just knew that certain people high up in organized crime, they wasn’t too happy about the idea of having something like that happen at that magnitude in their backyard.

Gotcha.

Because they figured Bobby’ really be down there.

You know, they already had their own little private wars going.

 

 

 

And uh so we decided well we take a movement.

So I had no idea it was going to Texas at that point.

This come to me down the road.

About when was that? Well I think I’m going to say probably oh two and a half 3 months maybe before I ever made the trip to Texas that they were talking about it because they didn’t know where he was going to go.

They were looking for an area to go but then they had heard that he possibly may take this trip to Texas but there was nothing definite.

And I didn’t go to Texas until that had been confirmed.

And they had several different locations.

There was New Orleans and I don’t know there’s other places he was going to.

But uh when it come down to it, I had been told there was places that they had planned to do it.

Other people had been authorized, you know, stuff like that.

Just different rumors you hear.

How much credibilities to it, I cannot say.

But when the time come and we knew there was going to be serious and we were going to the truck was sending me to Texas.

That’s when I went down on Belman Avenue, the old Valley place where we made the they made the pinball machines and I had a shed down there place where we uh back room that was all owned by the outfit too pinball machines.

 

 

 

I kept a catch of weapons down there.

We used to do a lot of work.

When I say we, I’m referring to party named Wolfman who is now deceased.

But at that time he was excellent remodifying weapons, manufacturing loads, whatever come down to handguns, rifles.

This guy was a professional at it.

He could manufacture things in his basement like you wouldn’t believe from silences on down the line.

He did it.

He did it all for him.

So I went down there, got the stuff we needed, and we had the one car that he just bought and already had everything secured in.

We had secret compartments in it.

And every car that we had, even before the 63 Chevy, even in the 61 Ford that we had prior to that, in the ‘ 62, we had compartments in the dash where you could reach up under it, open things up, put grenades in there, handguns, whatever we might need behind the back seat.

We had gun racks in the cars.

We had pull off door panels would snap off.

You could put them back on.

We had handguns and stuff in there, whatever you might need.

But we always had a work car ready.

So, what did Wolfman do for you? uh Wolfman when I contacted him after all this went down and this is several year later.

This is when I first met Joe West and Joe West had come here visited me.

We talked and he asked me said do you think this party called Wolfman would talk to me and Joe asked me what his real name was and I told him I said I won’t divulge that but I will call him and talk to him.

So I called him on the phone and I told him I said I’m talking to Joe West from Texas.

He wanted to know who Joe was and I explained all this to him and uh I said Joe would very much like to interview.

I said I did not give Joe name but I told him that you was the one that manufactured the special rounds.

You made six rounds for me to take the Texas all mercury loaded.

He said he wants to talk to you very much.

 

 

 

Will you talk with him? And he said get back to me.

He said I’ll let you know.

He said I want to check a few things.

The following week Wolf man was dead.

How’d he die? I believe he had a heart attack.

I’ve been in contact with nobody that was affiliated with Wolf Man since that day.

Tell me about these Mercury loads.

Can you describe them for just a lay person? Well, it was a 22 round and he took the tips out, he drilled them out, then he inserted with an ey drop, he put mercury into the end of the round and he reseal them with wax.

This is to make an explode on impact.

Okay.

So, now you got and describe the car.

The car was a 63 uh Chevy twod door burgundy Chevy Impala with the special compartments.

Oh, we had special.

Yeah, we had the special compartment the dash.

We had the back seat.

You could take that off, pull the bottom part out.

Then you raise the back up, snap it off the little clamps, take that out.

We had the springs removed in the behind the seat there by it.

And we had little racks welded in there so we could mount weapons in there.

Okay.

So now you got your weapons, you got your loads, you got your car.

How did it come together after that? Well, for just before I left, final instructions was Chuck told me, he said, “I want you to leave first thing in the morning.

” He says, “And I don’t want you driving at night.

” He said, “I want you on the highway with a lot of traffic during daytime where nobody pays any attention to you.

” Let’s go back.

Give me a date her approximate day.

 

 

 

I don’t remember the approximate day, but I went down like a week before the assassination.

Okay.

I want to say I was in uh that Dallas in the Dallas area 5 days before the assassination took place.

And what was the purpose of that? The purpose of that was for me to go to Dallas, look over the area, learn dead end streets, railroad crossings, time for train crossings.

They already knew the regular motorcade route that he would be taking.

And they had already looked that over and they want to see if there’s any better places.

And a lot of people already decided on.

I’m not the one that chose Daily Plaza, but I was told to look it over very close and look and see if I thought there’s any other place better.

And I did the whole area from the route they had all the way through.

I had Lee Harvey Oswel with me.

All right.

Go back now.

So about a week ahead of time, but I think it was a Monday as I recall something.

I’m not sure.

Okay.

Yeah.

But you left Chicago.

Just start.

You left Chicago.

You went to No, I didn’t leave on a Monday.

I left on uh I left either Thursday morning or Friday.

I don’t remember which.

I know.

I was in I was in Mosquite, Texas Saturday morning.

Okay.

Okay.

cuz that’s when Lee Harvey Oslo showed up at the motel where I was at.

 

 

 

I arrived there on a Friday.

I’m pretty sure it was Friday when I arrived there.

Did you call anybody when you got to Dallas? I made two telephone calls when I got there.

I called Charles Nicoleti, told him that I was on the scene and where I was at in case he had to reach me.

I turned around and made another phone call.

I called David Atley Phillips.

I had a number to call.

The call was put through to David Phillips and he was notified where I was at because I had not told him in advance that I was going to Dallas, Texas.

And why did you call David at Phil? Because he always had to know where I was at because he was my controller for CI purposes, special operations or something that might be needed done.

And you were supposed to stay in contact with him.

We always stayed in contact.

We had numbers to call.

What happened after that? He said, “Thank you.

” And uh let it go at that.

We didn’t have any great discussion on the phone.

I told him where I was at, the location and through David Ali Phillips is the only way that Lee Harvey Oswel could have known where I was at.

But I called no one no one else.

I made two phone calls.

Where were you staying? I was staying at the lamp lighter end right there in Mosquite, Texas.

And then the next thing you knew, Lee Harvey Oswwell.

The following morning, Lee Harvey Oswwell was there.

When he knocked on the door, I opened the door and I was shocked to see him because I didn’t think anybody knew where I was at except for the other two people.

Why is Phillips the only one who could represent Lee Harvey Oswald? Because Charles Nicollet had never met Lee Harvey Oswwell.

You didn’t know him? He did not know him.

Um, you say you were shocked to see him, but did you know Lee Harvey Oswwell? I had kne Harvey Oswwell prior to that.

Yes.

How’d you know him? I know him from uh earlier operation that we was on with David Phillips when I was running uh semi-automatic 45 caliber submachine guns down to Clinton, Louisiana.

They were made I think they were manufactured by Knoxville Arms.

They were not the old Thompson.

They look like a Thompson submachine gun, but they were not Thompson.

They were only semi-automatic and they were very cheaply made.

And how do you meet? Did you meet Lee Harvey Oswald? And who is? I met Lee Harvey Oswwell through David Ali Phillips.

When I got down there, he introduced me to Lee.

Was it your understanding that Phillips was also Oswald’s CIA contact? I learned that when I was down there.

That is the first time he introduced me to Lee Harvey Oswald and he also instructed me that Lee could be trusted and that he was Lee’s controller.

Need that as a statement.

He made as a statement because I wanted to know who we was dealing with and who I was giving weapons to.

And I I need you to make a statement that that I was introduced by Phillips who was my CIA handler and I was told that he was Lwell.

We didn’t we didn’t call them handlers back then.

We call them controllers.

Okay.

Okay.

Lee uh David Atley Phillips.

He introduced me to Lee Harvey Oswell.

And upon doing this, he also explained to me that he was Lee Harvey Oswell’s controller the same as he was mine.

That he was always in contact with Lee with Lee Harvey Oswwell.

So that’s how you know that that’s where the word came for Oswalt to come meet you in Dallas.

So that your common sense tells me the only one that could have sent Lee Harvey Oswel to me was David Atley Phillips.

And when I opened the door and Ozel was there, I was kind of shocked to see him cuz I didn’t know that he knew I was there.

And so I asked Leah says, “What the hell you doing here?” Cuz I was shocked, you know.

He said, “I said I was advised to drop by and spend some time with you and see if I could help you out.

” I said, “Help me out.

” He said, “Yes.

” He says, “Somebody wants me to show you the area.

” And I said, “Okay.

” I said, “Come on in.

He coming in.

” We sit down and we talked and I said, “I’ll be with you in a few minutes.

” And uh I was young and cocky at that time and I’d just come out of the shower and everything.

And I was calling my hair.

So actually I had a camera there.

I said, “To, hey, make a couple of pictures while I’m here in Texas.

” And so Oswwell made a couple pictures of me and then he said, “Uh, let me have the film.

I get it developed.

” I said, “No, no, no.

” I said, “I get the whole roll of film.

” So that was how that was how I got a couple of pictures made that people have recently asked me about.

But was that whose camera was it? Yours or yours? My camera.

Your camera? Yeah.

But he was going to take the film, tour him, and get them developed.

But I said no.

No.

Didn’t want to let that film go.

I do my own work.

How did he arrive at the motel? He arrived driving a Blue Falcon.

Ford Falcon.

You remember what year, Mom? No, I don’t.

It wasn’t brand new.

It was a couple of years old.

So he could drive.

Yes, he could drive.

When he met me in Clinton, Louisiana, he drove up in uh I want to say Chevrolet truck.

It could have been a Ford.

I say pickup.

It was a pickup truck.

Let me put it that way.

It was an old pickup truck.

And we put the weapons in the back end of it and pull the tarp down over the weapons.

What color do you remember? What color pickup? I believe it was green.

It was a real I don’t know, dirty, yucky green, whatever you want to call it.

Darker green like you know.

It hadn’t been washed in a long time and there’s a lot of rust on it.

That’s about the best way to describe it.

So, did you and Lee Oswwell drive around Dallas, son? Uh, we drove around Dallas.

Lee Harvey Os we drove around Dallas up till right before the assassination.

I did not see Lee Harvey Oswell on the morning of the assassination.

But prior to that, Lee Harvey Lee Harvey Oswwell had been with me every day.

We drove around.

He showed me different streets, different areas.

He was the one that took me out to the place southeast of uh Mosquite there next to a big junkyard.

We went out there in the field.

He said, “Ain’t nobody going to bother you out here?” You know, because I wanted to calibrate the scopes for the not only for the fireball, but for other weapons as well.

And while I was out there firing weapons and ejecting shell casings, Lee was picking them up and holding them in his hand cuz I didn’t want to leave no casings or nothing behind.

And I’m busy firing.

So I looked at Lee, grab them casings.

And that’s what he did.

He picked them and he held on to them.

We got released.

I calibrated my scope, set things up, put the stuff back in the car, and we got back in.

We went riding around, and I wanted to know the railroad crossings.

I want to wait and see what time trains come through.

Uh, I want to know if there’s any passengers, if there was freight trains, they stopped, tracks going to be blocked, intersections going to be blocked, deadend streets, construction work, where every intersection was at, uh, where all the lights were at, how long the lights were, they stayed red.

I wanted all these little details.

Did anybody show up or give you any static while you’re out there sighting in those weapons? No, nobody.

when I was test firing the weapons, nobody at all even come out there, looked at me, and there wasn’t any housing, nobody real close by.

We’re off the main highway there.

And uh like I say, it was just, you know, nobody come around.

Nobody even cared.

No, back I can remember back then we go out on Turtle Creek and shoot turtles and nobody nobody cops, nobody showed up.

How much time were you were you two together during the day? Uh we was out there test firing.

We were test firing weapons for approximately oh I’m going to say 20 30 minutes but during the day we probably spent any more than 5 hours 6 hours together.

So all that time he could not have been working in the Texas depository.

No uh he worked in the book depository store is what he told me.

I was never in that place but he had time off to come out and spend time with me and then I would drop him off in the area and he would go somewhere and I guess that’s where he went.

I had never asked him where he went, what he done, who he saw.

So that to be the cover jump then.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it gets to be say Thursday before the assassination.

How how did it all come down? I that Thursday I went on back to the motel.

I dropped him off that afternoon and I went on back out to the motel to uh get some rest.

And the following morning, I’d gotten a message that I was supposed to call uh Leo at the uh I think it was the Dallas Cabana.

And I called over there and answer Leo cuz Mr.

Nicolleti didn’t want his name used.

I knew he’d come in late.

I didn’t know when he come in.

I didn’t know how he got there.

But uh when I come in, I was told to come over there and park and that Johnny Roselli would come down.

He wanted me to drive Johnny Rosselli to Fort Worth.

I pull up out front and waited.

He come down a few minutes after I pulled up.

I never went in the hotel.

Never asked for anybody.

He come down and come outside cuz he knew I was in route.

And uh I drove from there to Fort Worth, Texas with Johnny Roselli in the car.

So that was Mr.

Nicolleti went with you.

No, Mr.

Nickeli did not go.

Just Roselli.

Just Johnny Rosselli went with me to uh Fort Worth.

Did you know Johnny Rosselli prior to that day? I had met Johnny Roselli before.

I’d met him in uh Florida.

in Miami.

Any jobs with him? Never any jobs with him? I talked with him and around, but we never uh we was probably involved in some of the same operations or things, but uh with the same people, but we never went out and did anything together.

Were you aware that Roselli was working with the government in anti-Castro? Yes, I was well aware of that.

He was statement.

I was well aware that Johnny Roselli was involved in the government actions.

He was like the license between CIA and organized crime.

And he was heavily involved in the invasion of Cuba, Bay of Pigs, Chianos Bay, whichever you prefer to call it.

But he was also very tight with Frank Sturgis.

Frank Sturgeis headed up the SAO, which is a secret army organization, what this is all about.

And they’ve had so many different code names for wanting to kill Caster.

I wouldn’t even I couldn’t even name half of them.

But every time you turned around, somebody had a new operation going.

But J, I’m sorry.

Did you ever hear hear Mr.

Rosilli uh as called colonel or did he have any military credentials? Uh I don’t remember what the total name was.

I know he was called colonel once in a while.

I can’t remember the name of but I know he was called colonel but that was uh as far as I know Johnny Roselli never held any rank of any kind.

But like I said he was and Bob Pe the CA he was licensed between them.

What his actual prayer was, I don’t know, but I know he was heavily involved with them and all through that.

I think it was Rston.

Colonel Yeah, Rston.

That’s it.

Colonel Rston.

That’s what they call him.

Colonel Rston.

Okay.

So, tell us about the trip over to Fort Worth.

The trip over to Fort Worth.

Well, was I didn’t know we were going to Fort Worth.

He’s told me and he had directions and I don’t know if he’d ever been there before or not, but we went through Fort Worth, but I remember the exit was uh we got well I went the next really is like University Avenue or University Boulevard.

It was named University.

That’s all I know.

And I know it was on the south side and then it sit on the west side of that street just a couple blocks off and there was a pancake house.

Fairly new one.

Did you know it’s still there? No, I didn’t know it was still there but still there.

It’s been there a long I guess they they made good pancakes.

I know that.

But that’s where I had my first Belgium waffle.

Why did you go all the way to Fort? Excuse me.

I got to clarify one thing.

I didn’t have a Belgium waffle that morning.

I had the Belgium waffle there few years later.

But that morning when I got there, Johnny Roselli went there to meet somebody by the name of Jack Ruby.

I had never knew Jack Ruby, nothing about him.

When I got there and pull into the parking lot, Johnny Roselli told me, he said, “Let me go in first, see where I’m going to sit.

Come in, position yourself.

” And he asked me, he says, “Are you are you carrying?” And I said, “Yeah, I’m carrying.

” He says, “Good.

” He says, “When I sit down, where I’m sitting at,” he said, “I don’t know what may transpire.

” He says, “Something could go wrong.

” He said, “But be very alert.

” He said, “Keep,” he said, “Keep my backside covered.

” He said, “I won’t be in.

” He said, “I won’t be in your line of fire.

” And I said, “Okay, I pick a hope and feel a fire.

” I says, “Wherever I figure I can handle it.

” I said, “I’ll go sit down.

I’ll come in position myself.

” Johnny Roselli went in and they had like you call it a booth to the table sitting there.

You know, it wasn’t bolded to the floor, nothing.

But he sit down in that and I went in shortly right behind him.

I positioned my stuff at the counter, ordered a cup of coffee, was served, and sit there and then I sit there and I watched until church stock man come in, walked over, Johnny got up, they shook hands, they sit down, they talked for a couple of minutes.

I seen him take like a half size like a legal envelope and only half that size out of his jacket and he laid pushed it across the table to Johnny Roselli.

He got up, they shook hands.

This man left.

Johnny waited maybe 2 minutes.

Johnny looked at me.

I got up.

I walked out of the restaurant.

Made sure the area is clear.

Nobody outside in the parking lot.

I went over, got in the car, started up.

I pulled up by the door.

Johnny Roselli walked out, got in the car, and we drove away.

Did you ask him or did you find out in some way what was in the envelope? On the way back on the way back to Dallas, Johnny was riding down the road.

He didn’t open the envelope right away.

We got almost I think it’s Arlington.

It’s about halfway there.

I’m I’m saying halfway.

It could be less one way or the other.

Been a long time for me.

But uh we was right about Arlington.

And uh Johnny opened the envelope up and started taking stuff out and looking at it.

Excuse me.

He’s looking at I’m noticing over I’m watching over while I’m driving and he’s got these little black wallets like halfsided like identification wallets and he opened them up and there’s identification plates in them and there’s badges in them.

At that point I didn’t know what the identification on it was because he’s sitting there looking at it and I’m not going to lead over.

I’m not going to say give me one of those or anything like that.

I’ll wait when they want me to know.

but he’ll tell me.

And then he opened up a piece of paper and he unfolded it and there’s been a lot of discrepancy over this part now.

But Johnny Roselli said they only made one change in the route and map.

There was a map of Daily Plaza, the motorc route.

When he looked at it for Daily Plaza, he said they’ve only made one alter, one change in it.

He said, “That’s all.

” And I said, “What’s that?” And he said, “They’re going to go down Elm Street.

was going to stop and make a detour and come around this little street here.

And he hauled it up and I kind of glanced over at it, but I didn’t get a chance to look at it real good at that point.

But I already had recon the area so I knew what he was talking about.

And I know everybody says, “Well, no matter they had the motorcade in the newspaper weeks and months ahead of time.

” True, they did, but they didn’t have that one change.

And anybody wants to show somebody a newspaper clipping, they better check it real close because the original route they was not coming down Elm Street there on that little detour where they had to slow down.

Had you heard prior to that that the uh when they got to Dy Plaza that they would just continue straight on down Main Street? Was that the idea? The original plan was that we’d be shooting at a fastmoving target and Nicicoi had no military experience and I already had advised him that he would have to shoot high and the target would be going away from him that he would have to shoot above the head and we were going for a head shot and I told him it’s going to be hard for you to get from there and uh we’re getting a little bit ahead though before we got into this part.

Yeah.

Let’s go back cuz Chuck hadn’t got to Dallas that week.

He only come in.

I had seen him that morning.

I hadn’t seen Chuck in person until I went with Johnny Roselli to Fort Worth and come back.

Johnny Roselli get out of the car, went upstairs, Charles Nicolleti come down.

Mr.

Nicicoi got in the car with me and we drove to Daily Plaza.

All right, back up a half second.

How did Roselli get to Dallas? At that point, Roselli, he mentioned to me, Johnny Roselli, we was on the way to Fort Worth and I asked him, said, “When’d you get in?” He said, “I got in this morning.

” He said, “I got in early this morning.

” He said, “I hadn’t been here a couple hours.

” And uh I said, “How’d you get in?” And he said he got lucky.

He caught a ride on a plane that’s sponsored by the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA.

How the hell did you manage that one? He said, “I got lucky.

” He’s had somebody there.

I didn’t ask no more.

He didn’t elaborate any more than that.

I didn’t dig any deeper than that.

He didn’t mention the board team at that time.

Not at that point.

Okay.

So, we got all that.

Now that when we get back, I still don’t know that he’s there on an abort mission.

I have no knowledge of that at this point of the game.

Johnny Roselli got out of the car, went back in the hotel.

I waited maybe 5 to 7 minutes for Charles Nicollet to come down.

When he got down, Mr.

Nickel got in the car with me and said, “Let’s go.

” We took off.

I says, “What too?” He said, “Take me over by the plaza.

” We went over.

We parked.

It’s drizzling rain.

We get out.

We’re walking around.

This is the first time that Johnny that Charles Nicoleti has even mentioned to me about an abort team.

And uh he asked me what he said while we’re walking around.

He asked John Charles Nicollet asked me he says how do you feel about being backup? I what do you mean backup? He said how would you feel about being backup as a shooter for me? I said what happened to Johnny what’s with Johnny? And he said Johnny’s a little bit paranoid on this.

He says, “The CA’s called the hit off.

” He said, “They don’t want the hit to go down.

” And I said, “What’d you say?” Shook’s exact exact words were, “Forgot him.

It’s going anyway.

” And uh I told him, I said, “What about Johnny?” He Well, Johnny’s Johnny will be with me.

He says, “But he’s not going to be a shooter.

” He said, “He doesn’t want to go against the orders.

” He said, “He’s been told he flew in here specifically to abort this assassination.

” Did you say he got cold feet? Uh, no.

Uh, when we was talking when I asked him about Johnny Roselli, I said, “How come Johnny’s not going to be a shooter?” He said, “Well, he doesn’t want to go against the orders of the CIA.

” He said, “What he wants he wants to call off?” He said, “He flew in here is an abort team.

” He said, “They flew a plane here specially with him on it to tell us to call it off.

” And so I asked him at that point, I said, “Uh, what’d you say?” He I said it’s a go.

We’re going to do it.

He said, “Jimmy,” he says, “you know we can’t call this off.

Only one man can stop it.

” He said, “And he’s here.

If he wants us to stop it,” he said, “he’ll notify me.

” He said, “I’m not going on somebody else’s word.

” He said, “As poor as it is right now, I have a go.

” He says, “From the boss.

” He says, “We’re going.

” Now, who was the one man that could have stopped it? There was only one man.

Charles Nicolleti did not say his name at that point.

He just said the boss.

I knew he’s referring to.

He was referring to Sam Gian Conor.

Who was he? Sam Gian Conor.

He was the number two man at that time.

A lot of people’s going to tell you he was number one, but not true.

Tony Aardo was still running things.

He turned things over.

He had Sam Gian kind of running all this operation, everything, but Tony Aardo was still the man and he was still calling the shots on whatever went down, whatever was done.

So anything Gin kind of said had to at least have the okay of it had to be sanctioned and it had to come through Tony Cardo.

We’re talking about the Chicago crime.

We’re talking about only the Chicago area alone.

There’s a question right there.

To your knowledge, was there involvement of any other crime families? Marcelo Traffic.

I knew of no other crime family being involved.

I heard rumors, but do I know if anybody else was involved? No, I do not know if anybody else was involved.

Okay.

That would have been out of character for them to even notify me about that or anybody else.

That only stays up in the higher ranks of the family or the people or the crime family, however you wish to describe it.

And when things are handed out like different departments, different people get different things.

Somebody might be in bookmaking.

Somebody handles the bookmaking.

They pass that out to one party.

This party, he distributed amongst the people in the area because everybody’s got a little what we call territory at that time.

And uh somebody else might be into lone sharking and then you might have somebody running uh card.

You might have somebody else running chop shops which eventually I got into which led to my federal prison sentence.

But when it come down to murder contracts that was a whole new thing.

Then we had somebody else that handled the liquor license.

But everything was distributed amongst different people and whatever moved including the garbage at that time.

Even the garbage was controlled by the outfit.

And one party, and this can all be confirmed.

I believe he’s still alive.

He’s very old now, but his name was the Carol.

He had the garbage pickup at that time there.

And he was strictly informed that if he picked up another can of garbage, he would be in his next garbage truck going out to the dump.

They took over his business.

And then he went into the junkyard business.

And later on down the road he became involved in a place out in Elgrove Village, his very big place called Globe Auto Records.

Okay.

So his son’s now running.

So uh once Mr.

Nicolleti said we’re going anyway, what happened then? That’s when he asked was that? Yeah.

About what? Start about what time? Uh this would be approximately 10:30.

Statement.

Yeah.

This here would be uh approximately 10:30 a.

m.

Johnny, excuse me, about 10:30 a.

m.

Mr.

Nicolleti told me he asked me to be the backup shooter and that was the first inkling of anything that I would ever be involved in the assassination itself.

Prior to that I was only know the area and transport weapons.

Was the weather clearing by that time? It had started to clear.

It started clearing about 10:45 I believe the best I can remember.

I could be off a few minutes.

I know it been drizzling rain.

It was cold.

It was damp.

Sun didn’t come out until oh after 11:00 a.

m.

I believe.

But like I say again I could be off a few minutes on it.

this a long time ago.

They say the knees go first.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, the weather’s clearing.

It’s about battle about 10 or so.

Proceed.

What happened? And I told Johnny, I said, “Yes, I’d be honored.

” I told Mr.

Nicolleti, I said, “I would be honored to back you on it.

” I said, “Anything you ask, you know, I’ll do.

” And she told me, and most of this had already been pre-arranged beyond my knowledge, but this plaz had been selected.

I hadn’t selected.

Someone else already selected it.

and he asked me where I thought it would be the best place for him and I told him the D tech building because the D tech building gave him a better shot with them taking the straight run through at a high rate of speed and uh evidently I’m quite certain that they had all this pre-arranged on that part of it is that place is his location and for him and Johnny as far as that goes because they already had made an arrangements to be admitted into the building.

Why do you think he checked that with you then? Why did he Oh, he didn’t check it.

He just asked my opinion.

He has always questioned me about different things.

He used me like a sounding board.

Like maybe, you know, you’re in business or in the office, you might ask one of your people around you.

What do you think about this? You don’t really care what he thinks.

You’re just asking for an opinion to see what he thinks.

Maybe you overlook something.

Or maybe he somebody’s got a better idea than you do at this time of the game.

Could it also be that you had military training and experience when Nicholas Well, that’s possible.

He respected me for my knowledge of weapons, my knowledge of uh knowing terrain because I’d been in combat.

And the first thing you walk into an area is to you it’s a landscape.

To me, it’s terrain.

Because if I walk in and I walk into an ambush, I want to know where the low spots are, the high spots are, where all the coverage is.

I got to know where I can get my rear end down so I don’t get shot off.

You got to have a place to go to ground in a hurry.

You cannot afford to stand around and be looking around and wonder, gee, where can I go from here? You do.

You’re dead.

You got to think.

That’s why you take all this training in the military.

You’re trained not to think, but to react.

Mr.

Nicolleti had never been in the military.

Had not to my knowledge.

He had never served a day in the army or any military service as far as that goes.

Where did you serve? I was in the army 82nd Airborne.

I took him at basic at Fort Leonardwood, Missouri.

I took my AIT at Fort Poke.

They screwed up my orders.

I went to Fort Seals and laid there for about a week, maybe 10 days.

From there I went to Fort Bragg to go airborne.

I won the service in January of 1959.

And where were you assigned when I left? We left believe it was July the 10th.

We went from there to Laos.

We was on an operation called Operation Whitar.

A handful of military advisers were going over to train people in Laos there to do uh certain operations.

Uh, at that time it really weren’t supposed to be any black bag stuff or anything.

We were just going there to train and equip people.

And I found a lot of it pretty hilarious.

We armed a lot of them.

We gave them weapons and they all took the stuff and they all ran up north and we had to fight them later.

But that’s how we basically done things all the way through the through the years in history.

Did they call it counterinsurgency at that time? Oh yeah, they call it counterinsurgency.

Uh, what I found the most amazing was all was a place called Vietnam just outside of Vietnam.

Not Vietnam.

Don’t get it confused.

This is Laos up in the central part of a place called the plane of jars.

There’s a large well pretty good sized town back then called Vietnam.

On the runways, most of them were dirt and they had steel matting down on it for planes to land on.

The Russians used the same runways that we did.

We drank in the same taverns that the Russians drank in.

We shopped at the same stores.

We knew the Russians.

They knew us.

But no, we didn’t bother each other.

They trained other people.

We trained other people.

It was just a close operation.

Uh, was there more than one of these white star teams? There were several white star teams, but they all worked in individual groups, and one group would never know what the other group was doing for the specific reason.

Each group was on its own to a certain extent, but they did not know what the next group was doing in case they were captured, tortured, killed, or whatever.

They could give nobody up.

Right.

Did you ever hear the name Colonel Fletcher Prrowy? Yes, I did.

Colonel Fletcher Prrowy.

He was the man in charge.

Excellent man, excellent warrior, soldier, good leader.

You knew him.

I knew Colonel Fletcher Prrowy personally.

Yes.

Mr.

Nicolleti asked me, he said, “If you was to say, if you back me up, Jeremy,” he says, “s where do you think it’d be the best spot for you?” I said, “Well, the spot I like best is up on the grass, you know, behind that stock a fence.

” He says, “Why there?” I said, “I got the railroad guard for cover.

” I said, “My clothes.

I can turn my jacket inside out.

” I said, “It’s plaid on the inside.

It looks like uh railroad workers.

Somebody out there wearing a flannel shirt.

Nobody’s going to pay no attention to me.

” I said, “I can go over there.

I can walk around a piece of chalk, walk them down by box cars, cross the railroad tracks, look at things.

I just be another worker.

Nobody will even look at me.

” And he said, “Okay.

” He says, “Uh, what weapon do you what weapon are you going to use over there?” And I told him, and he Chuck, I said, “Well, what’s the situation?” Chuck said, “You know, we’re going for a head shot now.

” I said, “This I understand.

I realize this.

” He said, “You’re not going to fire unless it becomes a necessity.

” He says, “If I miss,” he said, “then it’s going to be up to you.

” He said, “But you don’t fire.

” He said, “Unless I miss.

” He said, “It’s going to be your call at that point.

” He said, “So you got to you got to be very alert on this.

” And I told him, “Don’t worry about me.

” I said, “I got it, boss.

” And uh he said, “What are you going to use?” He said, “I’m going to use the fireball.

” And he looked at me, he says, “Why? Why the fireball?” Now, the fireball, for people who don’t know what a fireball is, it’s like a cut down rifle.

It’s actually basically this long.

The weapon was well ahead of its time.

This was one of the prototypes that the agency had got a hold of that had been manufactured by Remington.

Now, a lot of people are going to tell you that this particular weapon was not available at that time, but this weapon was available.

It didn’t go on sale till a few years later, but this weapon had been manufactured as early as 1961.

We had a lot of trouble of barrel blowing up on it.

Used too big a round on it or something, overloads in it.

a lot of problems with it, but they finally reinforced the barrel.

We got it where to work pretty good.

And uh Chuck asked me, he says, “Why the fireball?” You’ve only got one shot because the Remington Fireball 222 is a singleshot bow action pistol and you can mount a scope on it.

Well, if I’m going to wait until you’re through, I said, “I’m only going to get one shot anyway.

” Said, “Don’t really matter.

” I said, “Cuz I’ll never get a chance for a second shot by waiting till the last possible moment.

” He said, “Okay.

” He said, “It’s your call.

” Where did you get hold of a prototype weapon like the XP100? It was given to me by David Phillips.

I’d received this maybe a year prior, eight months year prior to the assassination.

The gun had been used twice before on assassinations, but nobody like a president or nothing.

But it was good for using you want to get into a close place area somewhere.

Uh somebody might say, “Well, why use a pistol?” Well, anybody that knows their weapons, this particular piece of sub is very accurate.

Very accurate.

Up to 100 yards at 100 ft.

I’m talking about we’re shooting now from the grassy null down to the highway to the street there.

We’re talking roughly 30 35 yards.

We’re only talking 100 ft.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel and especially a little three power scope on it.

But the weapon had been used before, but you could put in a briefcase.

You could walk anywhere with it.

Nobody pay any attention to it.

Uh the case that I had set up, I had a little loading press inside for it in case I had to manufacture anything.

I had a little holder for all the special rounds that were in it.

Everything was packed in foam rubber inside.

Uh the case was watertight, waterproof.

Uh but the case looked black.

The case was black.

It was like an oversized briefcase basically speaking.

And uh leather on the outside.

Leather on the outside.

and uh had a lot on a little metal flaps on it, you know, for locking it up, you could lock the case, but uh I wasn’t concerned about locking it.

But the thing is, you could pay get you could go anywhere.

You look like a businessman with it.

And uh I felt that was the best weapon to go with.

And so Mr.

Nicollet agreed with me on it.

He said, “Okay, your call, Jimmy.

” And uh that’s what we agreed on.

So then like I say the D techch building that had been previously arranged with them because they already had made arrangements to get the people in there.

So the Dow tech could not have been a last minute decision as boy as that goes like me saying okay I think the D tech building.

He just used me as a sounding board.

Now when you say had arranged to get you in the down text I mean that was an office building.

Anybody could walk in and out.

You’re talking about getting into a specific getting into Pacific office into Pacific area.

somebody reason they needed somebody there to get them inside.

Anybody could walk in and out, but the sole purpose of having a connection there, somebody that could get you into a place into an office where you could open a door and you could have a window to shoot from.

If you don’t have an opening, don’t do you no good to get in the building.

You got to be able to get into somebody’s office.

Office is not being used, nobody around.

Otherwise, the door would be locked.

You’d have no way in.

Do you happen to know which office that was? No, I do not know which office it was.

Uh, what’ you do? What did I do? Uh, we rode around there for we walked around the plaza for a little bit.

Then I took him back over.

I dropped Mr.

Nickel back off at the Dallas Cabana and he got with Johnny.

They therefore went back over there.

I told him where the car would be pulling alongside the building there and parked.

Uh, he told me that they would come out of the building.

They would get in that car.

Now that I did not drop Charles Nicoleti or Johnny Roselli off at the DTH building, they got into the building.

They were there on their own.

I told him where the car would be.

It’s his car.

He knows his car.

He knows what my job is.

They’ll be in the car.

He’ll be in the front seat.

Johnny will be in the back seat.

I’ll get under the driver’s wheel.

I’ll set my briefcase between the front and the back seat.

We’ll drive away.

Where did you drop him off? When we pulled out from the side of the building there, I went I made a right and turn on to Houston.

I believe that would be going north.

I’m not sure now my direction, but I made a ride on Houston.

went up Houston to a major intersection about four or five blocks, maybe six blocks, whatever it was.

Then I took a lefthand turn.

I went down close to the freeway there and there’s a gas station there.

I want to say Texico, but it could have been something else.

Might have even been a mobile.

I’m not sure now, but they had a car there.

This is where they told me stop.

This is where he told me he would be getting out at, you know, go down here.

We want we got a car waiting for us.

And I drove down there.

They opened the door.

They got out.

Uh they started walking across the parking lot.

Now, this is before.

This is after the assassination.

This is after the assassination.

Actually before you said you didn’t let him off at the dation.

I took uh Charles Nicoleti back to the Dallas Cabana to meet with Johnny Roselli.

Okay.

After you walked around after we walked around De Plaza.

There’s still another hour to go probably before the assassination is going to be.

Make that a statement.

After we walked around for about an hour, I took Mr.

After we walked around the uh De Plaza, I took Mr.

Nicolleti back to the hotel, let him out of the vehicle.

He went up and got with Johnny Roselli.

I took the car back to secure it where it’s supposed to be, make arrangements, and he asked me, “What if you can’t get a parking space there?” I told him, “Don’t worry, I’ll have a parking space.

If I have to, I’ll steal a car and move it out of there.

” I said, “We’ll be parked there.

Just look for the car.

” And it’s this point he told me, said we come out, he said, “I want the car close so I can get in it right away.

” cuz he’d be carrying a a rifle underneath his top coat, like his jacket, his top coat.

And he would come out of there and secure that in the trunk.

He’d put it in the trunk.

He had a key of the trunk.

He’d put that in the trunk.

Close the trunk.

Johnny get in the back.

Johnny Roselli get in the back seat.

He’d get in the passenger side.

I’d come walking up.

I’d get under the get in the driver’s side.

I’d enter my attach case, briefcase, whatever you want to call it.

Gun case in between the front and the back seat.

I’d get in, start the carp, would drive away.

I’d make a ride on Houston.

I’d go down Houston uh several blocks there.

I forget the intersection.

Make a left-hand turn.

Go down by the gas station just before you get by the freeway there.

And that’d be the Simmons Freeway at that area.

And they got out of the car.

They had a car waiting there.

Which car was, I don’t know.

Never watched them walk across the parking lot to it.

As soon as they got out, the door closed, put in gear, and I drove away.

I went back to Mosqu, Texas.

Okay.

Again, though, that was after all the shooting.

That was after all the shooting.

After I took Charles Nicolleti back to the hotel, I went back to the plaza, secured the car, got my briefcase out with a gun in with a fireball in it, I went into the railroad yard.

I secured that over there, put it away so nobody see it, and reversed my jacket inside out.

I had taken my hat, grape blank, and my jacket was a great poppplin.

We had these uh car jackets back then.

They were like waist length, not a short jacket, but they kind of come down a little bit.

It’s no car jacket length.

made out of a material that they no longer use.

It was called popplin.

You might remember that material, the popppland material, grayish color, had a shine to it.

Excuse me.

That’s what the jacket was like that I was wearing.

Pair of gray pants with it.

And uh I reversed the jacket.

It had the uh offset plaids in it like, you know, kind of like checker on the inside.

When I turned it over, it looked like one of the old gray flannel shirts that we used to wear out, you know, when you was doing work in the yard or something or other.

Excuse me.

And uh I walked around the railroad yard and I was waiting for the time to pass.

Time was coming on.

And when I heard the roar of the crowd, I’ve been over by the fence and I got there a little bit few minutes early.

I’d reached down.

I’d taken the scope off the weapon and I’d look up and I’d look over the fence and I would looking for people.

What I was looking for was not to see who I knew, but I was looking for people that would be carrying a bulge like up under the arm.

I’m looking for somebody with a weapon.

This way I have an idea.

Looking for security people.

I’m looking for security people, cops, undercover, security, offduty, whoever might be carrying a weapon, bulge along their hip, behind their back, like I say, under the arm in a shoulder holster.

I’m looking for these little bulges.

Most people don’t pay no attention to that, but this is what I’m looking for.

But then I, my amazement, I recognized several people out of the past that were in Daily Plaza.

Did I go talk to them? No.

But I recognized them and seen him there.

Who was that? I remember uh Al Vera.

remember seeing him there.

Uh, a lot of people say Jack Ruby was never there, but he was there before the motorc kid got there.

I know that for a fact.

And even though I didn’t know Jack Ruby, but I was as close to him as I was to you in the coffee shop, but I never spoke to him.

I was never introduced to him.

Never said a word to Jack Ruby, but I was that close.

I’m looking at the backside of him, and I’m pretty sure that was him.

Uh, the DZ was there.

I believe his name was Tony.

Tony Diaz is what I know him as.

Uh Richard Kaine, he was on scene.

He was in the crowd.

He had been there early.

He was leaving.

He was walking like away.

Uh Philip Alarzo, I know he was there that day.

Where he went, I have no idea.

But there are several people I saw.

How about Frank Sturgis? Frank Sturgis? He was there.

How did you know Frank Sturgis? I knew Frank Sturgis from the Bay of Pigs and from the SAO.

I also knew Orlando Bosch.

He was on scene, Orlando Bosch.

I don’t know if you familiar with his name or not, but he was also president.

Uh, and there’s a few other faces I recognized.

I just don’t remember the names for him because it’s so long ago.

How do you figure all those people were in DD Plaza? You know, I couldn’t figure that one out myself, but it’s like anything else.

It’s like everybody they they know something’s going to happen.

Maybe they know a building’s going on fire or something.

You know, you got a building burning, it may collapse, everybody runs to see the fire.

They should be going the other way.

About the only time I’ve ever seen a lot of confusion was where people were trying to get away.

Like if you’re the racetracker in a crowded place and somebody yelled gun, everybody broke and stamped.

And uh we had a few people out the racetrack get hurt that way.

They’re out of Maywood Park.

They got hurt in a stampede like that.

But uh basically speaking, if somebody knows something’s going to happen, they have a tendency to go see it.

Most people are curious.

You know, you ever drive down the highway, you see a wreck, you’re probably guilty of it.

You slow the car down, look out the window.

Everybody does it.

So, a lot of people come there for that reason, probably because they had heard these rumors and stuff that he was going to be assassinated in Dallas.

There was no secret, right? Even the National Security Agency knew that.

What about uh Eugene Braden? Eugene Braden, he was there that day.

He was the uh Eugene Braden was there for specific reason.

He had the contacts inside the DEC building and he was the one that Charles Nicoleti and Johnny Roselli needed to get him into a private office somewhere another.

I have no idea where that office was.

I was never in the Dow Techch building myself.

I can’t even describe anything in there.

So, you probably stood behind that fence there for some little time.

Oh, only for I stayed away from the fence.

I stayed basically in the yard, walk over the fence, look over it, send them a minute, then walk back away again and I was observing the area.

Were you a smoker at the time? Oh, yes, I did smoke.

Were you smoking cigarettes that morning? I had smoked that day.

Careless.

I probably stepped on several cigarette butts and left in there.

Most of them palm off.

Was it muddy back there? It was very muddy.

Let me put it this way.

I a couple times even took my shoes, put them up over the little country ledger and scrape the mud off the bottom of them.

What clothes Frank Sturge is wearing wearing? Uh I don’t remember exactly the clothes.

I remember he had on like a bomber jacket.

Remember the World War II bomber jackets the pilots used to wear? He was wearing one like that like that.

Like the one you got right there.

This had the brass buttons on it.

I remember that.

You can see that flashing, you know.

Which which location of Big Blazer was standing? Uh I was where you got the concrete steps to go down by the pagola there.

And between the pagola and the stockade fence, you got a set of concrete steps to go down.

I was to the right of those.

Draw me a map.

I got to put my glasses on for that.

You got them? Yeah, but I don’t want to sit here and draw it.

It’s going to take too much time up.

Okay.

But uh he is to the left and just off of the sidewalk.

He was standing in the grass itself.

And this was shortly before the assassination or uh this was just a few minutes before the motorcade got there.

But like I say, before the motorcade ever arrived on scene and I took the scope off.

I didn’t have the gun up over the fence.

I didn’t want nobody to panic at that point, but I had a little scope up my hand.

I could look over the fence and I could kind of check and see who was there.

I was looking, like I say, I was looking for security people, you know, for somebody carrying, somebody packing cuz I want to know who’s got weapons when I go to leave there.

That fence kind of makes an L shape, you know.

this on and off.

Yeah, there long air to short air, but it’s not exactly an L.

It’s on a slam.

45° angle.

Uh I was I would say 8 to 10 ft down there.

There was a tree branch that hung right over me.

I was behind that kind of giving me a little camouflage.

Okay.

Uh did you ever see an ambulance come by? No, I never paid no attention.

I wasn’t watching the vehicles that passed by.

I’m looking at people.

I never noticed ambulance.

You didn’t see an ambulance with red lights? No, I heard might have heard a siren.

I don’t remember.

I had all that tuned out.

I’m in another complete mode.

Sirens, lights flashing, ambulances, police.

That don’t bother me.

I’m not there to look for those things.

I’m there looking for other details, for other things.

Okay.

So then what happened? The motorcade came.

Uh I’m checking everything.

I got most everybody and just basically where the a lot of different people are standing at and I want to make sure that there’s like I say, I don’t have any cops right next to me because, you know, something happens and I have to shoot, you know, I don’t want to have to shoot anybody else unless it becomes a necessity.

So I had to walk away the fence.

I come back over, secured everything, got it ready.

I could hear the rumble, the people murmuring.

So you know the motorcade’s approaching.

So then I got ready, opened it up.

I’m holding the uh Firmington fireball down below the fence at this point.

Motorcade come down.

I believe that’s main suit there.

Come down on Houston.

Turn back around on Elm there.

Come down that little side drive there.

When it come down and made his first right, that’s when I brought the weapon up.

And then I’m over the fence and as they come down, made the turn on down there, that’s when I started focusing through the scope and following the car.

As shots started ringing out, I started counting the shots, but I’m not counting like one, two, three, and four.

I’m counting them miss, miss, miss because I know we’re going for the head shot.

So, I don’t care how many rounds are being fired as long as we get a head shot, but I’m hearing the shots being fired.

I’m counting them as a miss, as a miss, miss.

And uh that’s the only thing I’m concerned about.

I’ve got this sign there for the Simmons Freeway that is fixing to come into my field of fire.

As far as I can see at this point, President has not been hit in the head at this time.

I’ve seen the body lurch.

I know he’s been hit.

How serious? I don’t know.

But my last instructions was we’re going for head shot.

If you have to take a shot, take it.

But don’t fire unless it’s a necessity.

Unless you really have to.

He said, “Jimmy, don’t fire unless you have to.

We want everything from the backside.

” I’m not asking why.

Okay, whatever you say.

At this point, as it starts to approach and come behind that freeway sign, and I already been instructed not to hit anybody but Kennedy because they didn’t want Jackie getting hurt or anybody else, I’m fixing to lose my fuel of fire.

And at this point, either I shoot or I can put it in the suitcase and leave.

One or the other.

I took the shot.

I fired one shot.

One shot only.

And where were you aiming? I was aiming for his right eye, which to me it’s the left side of his head looking head on, but for him it would be his right eye.

And when I pull the trigger, I’m right in on it.

And it’s almost like looking six feet away through the scope.

As I squeezed, take off my round, his head moved forward.

I missed and I come right along the temple just right behind the eye.

Here or in the hairline? No.

All right.

Well, I’m going to I’m not sure because I, you know, I can’t see the penetration.

I know I hit him right here.

I know I hit behind the eye somewhere within a half inch diameter right there.

Say, but uh two shots almost simultaneously.

You think he got hit as you were screaming? What I believe is this, and I was I got my readings was marksman.

I’m good shooter.

Always was.

I’m not bragging on myself, don’t get me wrong, but that’s what got me my start with David Phillips because of something that I did in the service and I made a mark there and it’s on record and it’s recorded for head shots for what I did and the things that I did.

But anyway, make a long story short, as I was preparing to squeeze off my round, Kennedy’s head moved forward just as I squeezed.

It’s already in process.

The head started forward to me.

What I believe is, and I did not see, let me clear the fact now.

I never saw Mr.

Mr.

Nicolleti shoot Kennedy, but I know he was the man in the DEC building, the man supposed to be doing the shooting.

Therefore, the head started forward.

As far as I’m concerned, Mr.

Nicollet hit him at that point.

As I squeezed off my round, the head started forward.

I hit him and blew the head backwards.

So, the exit wounds where in the rear? Uh, I didn’t hit the rear.

The exit blew out.

And you can see Jackie, where where was the exit? On the right side or the left side? uh partially most of it on his right side I guess back there where the section come right out part of the back of the skull.

You know I didn’t go look at it.

I didn’t examine it and a lot of people may find this hard to believe but I have never read anything on the Kennedy assassination cuz I was never interested in it.

I did not like John F.

Kennedy.

Uh did you ever see autopsy pictures? Did I ever see what the autopsy pictures? Uh they sent me a book with I looked at a few of them but I didn’t read the book.

I want to say the book they sent me was probably called High Treason.

I never read it.

I looked at a few of the pictures.

I just wasn’t interested.

Can I show you a picture and uh ask you for your command? Mhm.

Where is it? You’re going to make me put my glasses on.

Yeah.

That’s one.

What What do you think of that picture? That’s the back of Kennedy’s head.

From what I’m looking at here, looks like part of the flap on the side is missing, but I don’t see very much in this picture here.

The back of the head missing.

What I’m looking at here is a lot of hair.

So, what’s your conclusion? What’s my conclusion? That ain’t the right picture.

Okay.

Thank conclusion.

You want my opinion on it? That’s not the right picture.

the the photo that I just looked at in my opinion that’s a fake picture.

That is not the real picture.

A lot of people might say you can’t see nothing through a scope, but I’m going to tell you something.

When you see something burst, his head like a watermelon, you’re going to see pieces of stuff flying different directions and people are going to be splattered by you.

At this point, I got to figure, well, she’s going to be picking up a piece of his skull because a lot of people say you can’t see nothing through a scope like this.

But what you’re going to see is like, and I saw it, the head explode.

I saw the backside come out.

I seen whoop range or whatever you want to call it, tissue, hair, a whole thing going everywhere just to spray.

And if anybody displeases, go out and shoot somebody and look through a scope while you’re doing it and watch.

Look at this blue.

And one other thing I like.

Did you see anybody splattered with blood? I don’t know who splattered.

I think one of the agents, probably one of the Secret Service agents riding on the back of the car.

I’m only assuming that I would say they probably got splattered because there was stuff everywhere.

But one of the other things I want to point out about Remington 222 fireball, it’s a high velocity pistol.

The most the round travels approximately 3180 ft per second.

Now then, for this type of weapon, there is very little recoil.

Now, a lot of people say there’s a lot of recoil.

It’s going to jump.

You can’t see nothing.

And I’ve had a lot of criticism over the years over this here.

So, I’d like for somebody to go out to firing range somewhere, gun store, and take one of these particular types of weapons that carry a 222 round and fire.

you’re going to find very little recoil, especially when you’re using an extended barrel weapon with a scope on it.

You got the weight to hold it down.

It’s not jumping and bouncing.

You’re not shooting a 44 or 45.

We have verified all that.

Okay.

But uh Okay.

So, did the motorcade ever come to a stop? The motor uh motorcade, the best of my recollection to me and my mind and everything is slowed down at this point.

When they hit when the first shot went off, it’s like it stopped.

It’s just like it slowed down almost to crawl or barely moving or maybe it even stopped.

I’m not really sure on that point.

I know I was waiting.

It kept moving.

It had to have been moving but very very slow cuz I’m waiting for it to get up the sign.

I’m waiting for something to happen so I don’t have to shoot.

Not that I’m afraid to but if I don’t have to, I don’t want to.

But like I say, when the car got even almost up to that Simmons freeway sign there, that was one of the moine ain’t like these new ones they got today with nice little skinny metal post and a little sign.

piece here had you made I guess the wooden uh legs on or what do you call it the post of hell was wood anyway though I had my shot either I shoot now or I don’t I took my shot you ever notice if uh any of those rounds hit that sign no I I don’t know if anybody else’s did or not as far as I know their rounds never hit it I know my round didn’t hit it like I say I fired one shot I was on target sign no I’m watching one thing through that scope I’m watching one thing I’m watching President Johnf Kennedy so if a bullet hit the sign you probably wouldn’t have seen you.

No, I didn’t even know Connley was hit at that point of the game.

Were you nervous in any way? Was I nervous? No.

If I’d have been nervous, I’d have been shaking.

I couldn’t have made the shot.

Okay.

A lot of people may find this hard to believe.

But you’ve got to understand something.

First time you go into the field of fire, when you go into a firefight in combat, you might be nervous or skimish, but after you’ve been initiated into the field of fire, whatever you want to call it, combat, firefights, a lot of people got different names for it.

Skirmishes, you could use you get you get over it, you know.

And to me, and a lot of people are really going to think I’m probably sick, but when you got into a firefight, that was the ultimate high.

I have never used drugs in my life.

A firefight to me being in the service, that was one of the greatest things there was.

It was the ultimate high.

And at this point, when you’re stalking down somebody and this particularly, they stopped me from hunting animals altogether.

I used to when I was young, I used to love to go shoot deer, rabbit, squirrel, whatever I could get, feeasant.

But after you went into the jungles and you’ve hunted man and you stalked a man down and you’ve hunted a man down on equal terms where he can kill you, you have no desire to go shoot a defenseless animal.

I become to where I loved animals much more than that.

I couldn’t kill you.

When my dog had to be put to sleep, my wife and one of my top right-hand men had to take the dog to vet because I didn’t have the heart to do it.

Were there any while you were up behind that fence mostly before the shooting started? Were there was there anyone in your vicinity? Uh there was nobody behind that stock fence but me at that point.

Nobody.

All the time I was there, I was alone.

But in front of the fence, the two part two people that I was mostly concerned about was a couple of guys wearing suits.

They were up there on top of the grassy null there.

And they were a little ways in front, maybe 15, 20 ft away, whatever.

You know, I did not know who they were.

In front of the fence would be the railroad.

They were yard.

Yeah.

But the stock fence.

No, the stock fence is between the fence and the road.

They’re between the fence and the sidewalk.

between me and the motorcade.

They’re on top.

They’re at the top of the null there.

They’re kind of like looking over everybody and watching people.

This had me a little bit concerned, but I don’t know who they are.

At this stage of the game, well, I’m going to take my shot.

I got the 45 ready.

If I got two, like I say, I don’t want to shoot nobody unless I have to at this point.

And I’ve checked them shoulder holsters, the backside.

I saw no bulges as far as I knew they wasn’t packing.

So, I figure maybe they’re just a couple of businessmen.

This, you know, people want to see see the president go by.

A lot of people are strange that way.

Everybody wants to go see celebrities go by.

But uh I took the shot and as I was walking away and like I seen Jackie crawl out there, motorcycle cop, he threw his bike down, he jumped off and as he come running a little zigzag or whatever you going to call like he’s really into combat or something.

He’s still a wide open target.

Anybody could shoot him.

He’s got his pistol out and uh he’s running up there.

The two men that defense there seen two guys with the suits.

They go over and they open up identifications.

So I have to figure these are probably my cover that I’ve never been informed about and I was told not to worry.

They stopped him and he never came no further.

He went back down off the null.

You were told not to worry.

I was told Charles Nicol told me said when you take the shot he just walk away.

He told me don’t run.

He said uh just walk away natural Jimmy.

He said don’t don’t don’t show no tension.

I told him he says don’t worry.

And I had no intention of breaking out of there running, but uh like I say, if somebody comes at me, I’m willing to do whatever I have to do to leave the area.

If they shoot somebody else, that’s what I’ll do at this point of the game.

You said 10 15 feet or so down from the corner towards the railroad.

8 or 10 feet something.

Yeah.

From the end for the Were you close halfway between in the halfway mark of that fence? Uh no, I wasn’t in the middle of the fence.

You got your left angle that comes you got about a 45 degree angle for the short part of the fence.

Yeah.

Then I’m down maybe 10 ft from there.

Okay.

There’s a tree branch.

One branch come right down the tree there.

It covered it halfway.

Halfway points on down to halfway is a little more down to my right.

Okay.

That would have been halfway down.

Did you ever notice a a a GI guy in a khaki uniform? No, I did not.

Okay.

Uh did you notice people on the railroad bridge? I knew there’s people up there, but I didn’t pay any attention to them.

They didn’t have a good view of you anyway cuz you were under I’m under I’m pretty well undercover.

The only time people could see me from the vioadok or from the railroad guard is when I was walking down the tracks next to some of the box cars.

But as you recall it, nobody was with you behind the fence.

I said before like there was nobody behind the stock fence with me.

I am the only person back there.

Anybody else back there is over in the railroad yard by the trains.

How about down by that corner down there? Did you have a clear view? There’s a lot of cars back there, right? Yeah.

Did you have a clear view? Could somebody have been down around by that corner and you might not have seen them? Uh, they could have been down there.

A couple of cars drove through while I was there, but who they were and what kind they were, I don’t even remember because I just wrote it off.

As long as nobody got out, nobody come by me, they’re in no concern.

But shortly before there was no uh, right before the assassination, there was nobody standing next to me.

How about 3 minutes before the assassination? You don’t? Not by me.

I was alone back there.

Okay.

I had no other party standing by me.

somebody was there in the yard or down at the other end, you know, 30, 40t away.

That has no bearing to me cuz I paid them no attention.

Well, there’s this eyewitness report of the guy in the railroad down the tower.

Well, he might have been the tower, but I I’m talking about people on the ground walking up by me or passing me or No, but he’s describing two persons behind the fan and one fits your description.

Mhm.

But, well, maybe he’s figuring two people when he see me change my jacket and walk away, somebody different.

I don’t know.

But I was alone and there was nobody with me.

Okay.

All right.

So, uh, after you walk away and these two guys cover for you, describe your actions then.

Oh, I’m walking away.

I’ve got my briefcase, gun case in my right hand.

I’ve got my left hand over by my coat pocket.

I got a C4 there.

I’ve got it fully loaded with six rounds on it.

It’s ready to go if I need it.

Oh, and you reversed your jacket.

I’ve already reversed my jacket.

When I picked up the gun case, I reversed my jacket.

No plaid side.

I got the popppland gray material on the outside.

I took the fedora I had shoved down in the sleeve of it, snapped it out, put it back on my head, and I walked away in the briefcase and my 45 inside my coat pocket.

How long did it take to do? Just a few seconds.

Don’t take long.

Is that any chance that that’s you walking along right there? I have to blow it for you.

Oh, yeah.

The blowup’s even worse.

He’s just a blob.

This would be probably 15 to 30 seconds.

Looking at that, I couldn’t say it’s me, but I’m saying you can see somebody there.

Basically speaking, it could have been.

Is that the direction you took? Yeah.

Walk back towards the deposit, right? Going in that direction.

And and there was nobody around you at that even at that point.

At that point, there’s nobody around me.

I’m not going to let nobody get close to me at that point because like I say, somebody might try to grab me.

They might want to pull a gun on me.

Uh I’m looking at people.

Uh somebody turns around.

If they make the wrong move, if I see somebody pulling a weapon, they’re going to be shot.

If I see somebody uh Okay, this is a there’s a little retaining wall and right on the other side of it’s a sidewalk.

And then there’s like a little uh I don’t know, little garden patch, little little flower garden thing.

And then that road, the little road that runs in front of the depository, right? That’s the one that comes to the dead end down here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That’s the one.

And that’s right where you were walking.

That’s right where I was.

Was you on the south side or the north side of this? I don’t remember.

Don’t remember.

Okay.

All I remember is I’m walking and I’m watching over my shoulder.

I’m trying to see if anybody’s coming at me.

You have a Mormon picture there? Yeah.

I think it Yeah.

Now, we might as well look at this right here.

Is that the tree you’re talking about? Yep.

You can see the branches from back over here coming right down over the wall.

And that’s the vicinity where you were standing right there.

Mhm.

Do you remember which side of the tree you were on? Was it to your left or your right? I could be mistaken.

I believe the No, the tree was to my right.

had to be to the right.

Tree was to my right cuz I didn’t want to have the tree in way on my left.

That’s correct.

Or you can’t see the sign here, but the sign is right on down here.

Did you ever notice those people? Uh there was people out there.

I remember more people than that being around.

I don’t know where they all disappeared to, but uh I remember people falling down, laying down, jumping down, whatever you want to call it.

People moving to get out of the way, going in other directions, stand some standing around pointing and uh who they were, what they were wearing, I couldn’t even start to tell you.

What about what about what about these two guys right here? Do you notice them or do any of those look familiar? Do any of those look like some of those guys you saw that you recognize? Uh they could have been.

It’s hard to tell.

It’s hard to tell from this here cuz like I say, when the motorcade come, I wasn’t looking and nobody else.

I don’t know where everybody went.

I didn’t really care.

By the time by the time motorcade got there, the sun was out.

It was pretty bright.

It’s almost warm, right? Yeah, it was nice out.

It was nice.

Yeah.

Came broke to be a nice day.

You don’t see anybody with an umbrella? Uh I remember somebody down past me to the right towards the Vioad.

They had an umbrella, but what they were doing, I don’t know.

I’ve heard the theories of the umbrella man shooting somebody with an umbrella, but you don’t believe that? I don’t believe that.

Not for one minute.

Why not? Why not? It’d be kind of silly for somebody to take a number where you can’t even aim it.

All you can do is point it and you’re still going to be shooting in a moving target.

And it had to be a very small caliber because they didn’t come in big calibers and they were used basically for uh in-house operations and you’re right on top of the target when you use it.

In 1963, the agency, which I’m referring to, the CIA, they had weapons basically based in umbrellas, like you could use it, walking cane.

Some of them carried a small caliber round.

You couldn’t put a big caliber in there.

To me, the weapon was strictly an in-house weapon where you had to be right on top of the target.

There’s no way you can stand out on a sidewalk and take an umbrella and point it and hit a moving target without aiming.

I mean, this is a lot of fantasy here.

I thought the umbrellas when they come out with them, they had the little darts in them.

They had the poison on the end of them or you could jab a guy going downstairs or in a house or in a room, any place where there’s a lot of people moving and mulling around together.

Uh you could walk up with somebody, you could shoot fire small 22 caliber round into them.

But uh as far as for somebody using an umbrella on the sidewalk and firing around, no, that’s that’s a lot of fantasy.

Where you parked the Chevrolet on Houston Street? I’m not sure.

Right next to the Dow Techch building there, whichever street that would be.

No, Houston.

Houston Street’s the one that going up and down.

His street’s the one that runs and the scuba depository is over here and Dallas building over here, right? Uh did you park on that street? I parked on the street right next to it.

Yeah.

Was it a head-end parking or was it a parking lot or did you straight in? Well, you going to call it a parking space, parking lot, uh parking aisle, whatever you want to call it.

The place cars were parked there.

A row of cars.

Row of cars.

Row of cars.

Kind of backed it in.

Backed it in.

I parked it so he could have access to the trunk.

So your back end So the front endated.

Well, no, the front is pointing forward.

Yeah.

Forward towards the street.

And when and I’m getting ahead here, V.

But when you left, you turned right.

When I come out of there, I made a right-hand turn on the Houston.

Yeah.

Going north.

Okay.

All right.

So, that’s where you parked it.

That’s where I parked the car.

Now, so as you walk past, did you just walk straight to the car? I went straight to the car.

I didn’t bother pay no attention to nobody.

I went right to the car.

what was going on around me.

I don’t know.

I can’t tell you what passed me.

I can’t tell you who was looking at me.

And I can’t tell you how many people was around.

I had one thing on my mind.

Anybody that approaching me with the determination to stop me, to question me, detain me, whatever you want to call it, or anything else.

All I want to do now is reach my destination, which is the car.

Put the case in the back seat there on the floor like I chug me already have figured out.

I’m going to get in the car, start it up, drive away.

Was the car empty when you got there? No, sir.

When I got to the car, Charles Nicolleti was in the front seat.

Johnny Roselli was in the back seat.

And there’s only two seats in the front.

We had the bucket seats in it.

So, as soon as you got in the car, he just started up.

Soon as I got in the car, opened the door, set the case in the back, behind the front seat, got right in the car, with the ignition, gone.

Anybody say anything at that point? Nobody said nothing to me at that point.

We pull out and as we went down the street heading for the intersection.

The only thing that was said to me was Mr.

Nigley asked me, he said, “Jimmy, don’t you think you overreacted?” He says, “What do you mean?” He said, “You think you fired too fast?” And I told him, I said, “I fix to lose my fill of fire.

Either I shoot then or I put it in a brief, put it in my gun case and I I leave.

” I said, “I had one choice.

” I said, “At this point, you told me we’re going for a headsh shot.

There’s been no headshot.

” I said, “I’m just following my orders.

” I said, “I didn’t want to explain to you why I didn’t shoot.

” Did he say anything to that? That was the end of it.

He told me, he says, “At this intersection,” he says, “Make a left and pull up at the gas station.

” We get down there.

He says, “We’re getting out.

We’re getting in another car there.

” And I said, “Okay.

” I pulled out, parked, they got out of the car.

He said, “I’ll see you in Chicago.

” And that was the only thing that was said.

Did you take that as criticism? I took it as criticism, naturally.

Did he criticize you very often? No.

The only thing was he asked me thought if I thought I overreacted.

You told him no.

And he accepted.

He accepted it.

The motorcade is coming down.

I’ve got my target in the scope.

My primary target is lined up and I’m waiting.

And like I said, we’re going for a head shot.

I don’t want to fire unless I have to.

At this point, I’m fixing to lose my fuel of fire.

I took my shot.

When I took my shot and I knelt back down to the briefcase, I ejected the corn casing in there.

I picked up another live round, put it in and closed the bowl on it.

I took this shell casing as it come out to the briefcase.

I put it in my mouth, tasted the uh sulfur from it.

Love the taste of sulfur, by the way.

Closed the briefcase up and as I stood up, I did something I shouldn’t have done, but I did do it.

I took the shell casing.

I bit down on it.

I took it out and I looked at it and I set it on the stocky fence and there was an indentation from my teeth on the shell casing on the ridge by the orphice and I left it sitting on the stock fence there and I walked away.

Well, you got to understand when you’re young you’re cocky.

Everything is uh indestructible to you.

You know, nothing can go wrong and you got to be a strong believer in all that.

I mean, you know, you’re infallible.

And I did that because we had did a few other jobs and we did some I might put a quarter on the forehead and we put them in the ground.

You know, we might bury him somewhere, lay a quarter on the head.

Two bit gambler.

Uh might put a dime a nickel in each eye so I got a nickel in one eye, dime the other one.

You know, nickel and dime thief.

Was kind of your calling card.

Uh more you might say that Chuck, Mr.

Nickel would laugh at me when I do things like that.

And hey, you know, we got to let them know what they got hit for.

You know, to me it was a symbol.

Say calling card, trait, whatever you want to do.

He used to laugh at me over and he told me, “Jimmy, just you do the job, you do it, and forget about it.

” Would Mr.

Nicolleti have been okay with you doing this in the Plaza? Oh, if he would have known I did that in the Daily Plaza right now, he probably turning over in his grave for me doing something that stupid.

Yeah.

Right.

But, uh, Mr.

Nicolleti criticized me one other time.

Matter of fact, at one time, I won’t get into the details, but we had somebody in the trunk and I stopped and bought a canary cuz this guy was a real snitch.

And I wanted I come out of the dime store with a canary.

I broke its neck cuz I wanted to leave the canary in the guy’s mouth.

And he gave me firm instructions.

Don’t you ever do anything like that again when we’ve got something in the trunk.

Really? You know, it’s highly uncalled for in reality.

Jimmy, I’m sure you’re aware that they have found two 22 22 shell casings.

I’ve heard that.

I’ve heard that.

Have you got any speculation, any idea where a second 222 shot casing? I have no idea whatsoever.

I fired one shot, one shot only.

I ejected the shell casing.

Mine was a Remington cartridge manufactured prior to 1963.

I bit it.

I set it on the stock fence.

I had no empty shell casings for a 222 with me at all.

This shell casing, by the way, was found uh not in the exact spot where you left it a little bit further at the other side of the fence.

Well, I look at it this way.

Whoever was searching, somebody up to looking, anybody could have looked at it.

They could have thrown it over there.

Somebody could have stepped on it.

Maybe somebody didn’t want it found.

Who knows? They didn’t want to carry anything away from there in case they got stopped.

Maybe they just stepped on it, buried it in the ground.

I don’t really know.

I know where I put it.

That’s all I know.

The guns that you brought to Dallas, was was the fireball the only fireball? No sir, it wasn’t.

You had another fireball? No, I only had one fireball, but I had a couple of rifles in the car.

I had a shotgun in the car.

I had a couple of other handguns.

I brought down probably half a dozen different weapons.

Well, my question though is that was the only 222.

That was the only 222 round.

Like I said, I had a total of six rounds.

Okay.

I got six rounds for the Remington fireball.

I have no empty casings there.

The other casings that I brought down with that.

I had six special loads.

But the rounds that I fired were standard rounds and I had no empty casings with me.

Those were disposed of about by mosqu.

I didn’t leave them where I test fired them.

I picked them up and got rid of them later.

I made sure they couldn’t be found cuz I didn’t want anybody to match anything up to the weapon.

But with the fireball, there’s no way they’re going to match the ballistics for the simple reason the shell fragmentates.

But you’ve still got the firing pin that’s going to strike the primer on the end of the shell casing.

So, and a lot of times if you’ve got a weapon where you can match ballistics on, you want to melt the barrel down if you’ve used it and uh some kind of a job like that or whatever like you know local hit or something.

Also, you want to take out the pin to firing pin because you don’t want that discovered either to match up with the primer because they can match that.

Yes, they can.

Do you have any idea about the possibility of other hit teams in Plaza that day? They’ve uh I’ve heard different stories about different teams there, different people shooting this and that.

To my knowledge, to my knowledge only.

I never knew of another hit team that was in the area for Kennedy that day.

If there’s another team there, I have no knowledge of it whatsoever.

But it could be anything is possible.

Anything’s possible.

It could have been another team there.

But what I’m stating is this.

As far as I know, from what I was involved in, Charles Nicoleti, Johnny Roselli was with him cuz Johnny Roselli was like his lookout, whatever.

Pick up any shell casing that he’s ejected from the rifle.

We don’t want to leave shell casings on the floor.

Mr.

Nicolleti didn’t want to be running around looking behind chairs or desk.

Where’s the casing? Where’s the casing? You got somebody there picking them up as they come out.

And uh like I say, I never saw Charles Nicolleti pull the trigger, but he was the shooter from what I understand with him.

You saw Richard Kane there.

Could he could he have been a shooter? Richard Kaine, he was on location and so was uh guy the name of Milwaukee Phil.

His name is Philip Alarzo.

Believe I’m saying Alarzo.

But if there was another hit team because they faded from the scene, I don’t honestly know.

I can’t say yes.

I can’t say no.

Do you think Lee Harvey Oswwell fired any shots that day? Lee Harvey Oswwell never fired a shot.

And if anybody knows what a parapin test is and we have actual court documents on where Lee Harvey Oswwell was given a parapin test by the Dallas Police Department and on this document it plainly states deceased JD Tibet deceased John F.

Kennedy suspect Lee Harvey Oswell.

And they took a parapin test his face his hand his arm.

I guess the side of his neck and the only trace of any nitrous from powder burns or powder sufficients was in the palm of his hand.

And anybody that goes to a firing range that fires weapons knows if you fire a 38 revolver or any type of revolver, the blowby is going to come back across this part of your hand and your wrist.

The only reason he had those nitrous in the palm of his hand is he was holding spench shell casings.

When I calibrated the scope, there were still traces of that.

But Lee Harvey Oswwell, it’s like I say, that’s a court document.

And I don’t believe anybody rigged that one up.

So you left Mr.

Nicollet and Roselli off this gas station where they had a car.

Do you remember what that kind of car it was? I don’t know.

I’m not even sure which one it was.

There was a car there.

I mean, they said they had a car there, but there’s several cars parked off on the side.

I did not wait.

I did not watch them walk across the lot.

As I pulled out from the intersection, I made a left-hand turn at the intersection.

I went down by the gas station.

When I pull up at the gas station to let them out of the car, let them out of the Chevy I’m in.

And I’m in 63 Chevy.

Burgundy Chevy.

We’ll get that fact straight.

Not a red one or anything.

Just burgundy.

That’s the color of the car.

They opened the door.

They exited.

As Mr.

Nicolleti exited the car just as he closed the door, he said, “Jim, I was seeing in Chicago.

” Told him, “Okay, boss.

” He closed the door.

They walked across like to go into the park into the gas station there.

There are several cars parked over there.

I have no idea, no knowledge which particular car they went to.

I did not wait to see.

I pulled out, made right on down, got up on the highway.

I went back to Mosquite.

I went back to my motel.

I don’t want to be riding around with a carload of weapons and somebody’s just been hit.

Be highly unpractical.

I went back to the hotel, pulled in.

I parked my car in right in front of my room where I could watch it.

I got out of the car.

I went into my room.

And I got in the room.

Zita went in, sat down, relaxed, got a drink of water, stripped all my clothes off, went in, took me a shower, come out of the shower, I took some wax that I brought along for this particular purpose.

And if anybody wants to try this, it can be pretty painful.

But I knew that I would have redson on me here and on the side of my face from firing the weapon and across my hand and wrist.

Took hot wax and I poured it on myself and let it cool so it cut into the pores on the side of my face.

And after a few minutes, I peeled it off, which would remove all the nitrous from any gunpowder.

I went back into the shower and showered again.

Then showered, finished up with a good cold one cuz felt like I was kind of on fire and burning.

When I got out of the shower, dried it off.

Then I put a lotion over everything to cool the burning sensation.

And then I got dressed.

Once it got dark, I went out to the car.

Nobody was around.

Make sure everybody’s inside doing whatever they’re doing in their motel rooms.

opened the trunk up.

I took the weapon out of the trunk and when I had gotten out of the car earlier, I had taken the briefcase, the gun case with my fireball in already taken that into the hotel.

I went inside, had one weapon I took in, cleaned it, got it ready to put back in the car.

I waited till after midnight.

I went back out the vehicle, got in, pulled the back seat out, took the top part off the back, put the gun, the gun back in the rack, the rifle.

I secured my fireball with the gun case in there.

Closed everything back up and went back in the hotel.

I went to sleep.

I got up the next morning at first light.

Went down the road.

There is a restaurant down the road a little ways off on the right hand side as you’re coming back east.

Restaurant and coffee shop not too far up from there.

Maybe a mile, mile and a half down the road.

Something like that.

Anyway, best I remember.

I stopped there, had me some coffee, breakfast, got in the car, and I left.

I drove back to the southern part of Illinois.

when I got southern part of Illinois starting to get dust getting late pull off at a motel there uh as you got back in I can’t remember the name of it I remember it was like a blue and white one I want to say southern something another like a truck a lot of trucks there I went in got a room and I stayed overnight there the next morning I went out got in the car proceeded to Chicago are you drinking man at that time I was yeah you have any drinks while you were in Dallas that during the week beforehand.

I drink no alcohol.

I’m working.

Mr.

Nicolleti would uh frown on that very very much.

I was down there running around drinking and cabareting.

What can you tell me about the death of JD Tippet? Uh when it comes to JD Tippet, they say that Lee Harvey Oswald was the one that shot him.

It’s not true.

The party that shot JD Tibet was someone else that had been brought in.

I’m not sure where he come from.

I didn’t even know this party was on location.

But after that, I’m already back at the hotel.

When the party comes up, somebody knocks on my door.

I picked up my 45, walked over the door, pull a little curtain back.

I kind of look out the door to see who’s there.

And I see this party standing there that I recognize that I know.

And I open the door and my says, “What the hell are you doing here?” He’s had to stop by.

Got a problem.

You got a problem? And I’m looking at him.

You know, I’m still trying to raise her.

How does he even know I’m here? Nobody knows I’m here.

You know, this is getting to be a habit.

Like everybody knows Jimmy’s in town.

And he said, “Uh, I had to burn a cop.

” And I said, “Well, you done what you had to do.

” He said, “I missed Oswald.

” And I said, “Well, what are you doing here? You burn you burn a cop.

” He said, “You going to take this and get rid of it?” I said, “Hell no.

That’s yours.

You taking get rid of it.

You just shot a cop.

I don’t want his weapon.

Don’t you get rid of it.

That’s yours.

Don’t get out of here.

Go.

” What are you talking about? Pardon me.

What are you talking about? The gun I’m talking about the gun that he had was a revolver and uh he said here I had to burn a cop you got to you did what you got to do I don’t want that thing get away from get out of here go where you got to go it’s kind of dangerous wasn’t it I mean you’re you’re kind of laying low and then this guy yeah this somebody knocks on my door at this point you know I’m you know I’m ready to start shooting again you know and he said okay and he said something another I don’t I don’t know exactly what it was and uh he went out he got in his vehicle and he took off I I don’t even know what he was driving cuz as soon as he walked out that door, I close the door and pull the curtain back.

Yeah.

I don’t want to know anybody.

I don’t want to know anything whatsoever at this stage of the game.

You’re not naming this party? No, I’m not naming this party.

Reason for it.

What is the reason for it? Well, I don’t know if he’s still alive or not, but uh late as 1991 when I caught this case, I know for a fact the party was still alive and in good health.

Okay.

But, you know, it has, you know, he didn’t shoot Kennedy, he shot a cop.

You know, everybody wants a cop killer, okay? But this guy’s gone.

I don’t know who he is.

I mean, I know who he is, but I’m not going to tell nobody who he is.

He’s gone.

That’s out of there.

I have no idea where he’s at.

I don’t want to know where he’s at.

Well, when it comes to giving somebody up, I’ve never given up anybody in my life.

I’m not going to put anybody in prison.

And the matter of fact, you probably couldn’t get the FBI to admit to it, but when a couple of their people forced their way into Stateville, I was offered all kind of deals and all kind of agreements if I would not give an interview on John F.

Kennedy before, you know, I told them to do what they got to do.

They did.

Sorry to my regret.

But the thing is this, I’m not going to give anybody up.

I’m not going to put nobody in prison.

I haven’t never went to court and testified against anybody.

And I’ve had a lot of deals offered in my time.

I’ve told them, “Put me in jail.

” I’ve went to jail.

I’ve had cops tell me this and that.

You know, we’re going to lock you up.

We’ve got you dead bang.

I’ve had prosecutors come and tell me, you’re dead cold.

Plead guilty.

If you would hear that this party that killed Officer Tippet is dead, would you have no problem revealing his identity? You’re asking me a question right now I can’t answer because I’m not really sure.

Not that it’ make any difference.

Probably if he’s dead, they couldn’t put him on trial.

But again, pardon me.

If he’s dead, they couldn’t put him on trial.

But what I’m saying is this.

I really don’t know how I would feel about that because, you know, to me, it’s not that irrelevant.

It’s not that important.

and his voice I’m concerned I’m not going to help FBI or anybody else close their records on a murder case you know this is Kennedy we’re talking about you know to me I never like Kennedy uh I don’t even know why I ever did it I don’t even know why the FBI gave Joe S the lead on me I’ve never understood that one but the tippet killing is related to the murder of Kennedy uh no the tippet killing is not related to the murder of Kennedy if you want to get right down to it the tippet killing is related to Oswell because Oswell was the one that was supposed to die.

Not Tibet.

Tibet is one of these people that just stopped the wrong person that got caught in the wrong place.

And when he went to ask a party something and you’ve got an officer in Round Lake Beach by the name of David Auster Tag when he goes out and gives his tours and he talks, he tells people how careful they have to be these young recruits because you never know who you’re stopping.

Somebody should have given that talk to JD Tippet because he stopped the wrong party and got him killed.

So the party that killed Tippet though was actually out.

They was after Lee Harvey Oswwell.

Make a statement to that.

Okay.

The party that killed JD Tibet, they wasn’t there to kill JD Tibbit.

They had parked a little ways from Oswell’s boarding house.

They went down there to kill Oswell.

They wanted to kill Oswell.

They didn’t want to make a big spectacle out of it.

They wanted to silence him at that point of the game before anybody can get to him.

But I guess I don’t know if Lee got spooked or whatever it was, but then he went to the theater and he knew where he was going when he left there because he was supposed to meet the controller there, which is David Atley Phillips.

He was the one that’s supposed to be at the theater as far as I understand.

How do you know? Because I knew that’s where he was supposed to be.

I knew Lee Harvey Oswel was going to go meet him.

Uh, start over.

Just saying.

It was my understanding that he was to meet his handler, David.

And my understanding with Lee Harvey Oswwell when this is over that he was going to be in contact with David Atley Phillips.

I did not know that David Phillips is going to be at the theater but I knew Oswell was going to go meet him.

My understanding was with Lee that he was going to meet his controller which was David Phillips who was my controller.

He was going to meet him.

I didn’t know that it was going to be at the theater.

I have no knowledge of that at that point.

But if Lee Harvey Oswwell ran to a theater that had to be where the meeting was going to take place.

Lee must have left this house early or for whatever reason.

I don’t really know.

But the party that went there didn’t find Lee there.

And when he started to leave, he was stopped by the police.

This is when he shot Tibet.

What transport there? I can’t tell you who saw this guy there.

I can’t tell you whether he ran.

I can’t tell you whether he walked.

I don’t know.

All I understand is this.

A party that I know that come by my motel room told me he had to burn a cop.

The cop he burned was JD Tibet.

That was the only cop killed in Dallas that day.

So they had to be the one that he burned.

At this point, he says, “Here, you want to get rid of that?” I said, “Hell no, take you get rid of your own weapon.

” I said, “I got my own problems.

Get out of here.

Go.

” How did How do you know that uh Lee was supposed to meet his uh contact? Reason uh when it comes down to the part of this guy going for Lee Harvey Oswell, the connection is this.

Lee Harvey Oswell had just spent five days with me.

He Harvey Oswwell knew who I was.

He knew I was in town.

He knew what just happened.

Was tied to me basically drastically.

When I talked to Charles Nickel that morning, I told him this.

I said, “We got a slight problem.

” And I said, “What’s it?” He asked me, he said, “What’s that, Jimmy?” I said, “Le Harvey Oswwell.

” And at that time is Mr.

Nicolleti said, “Jimmy,” he said, “Who’s Lee Oswell?” He said, “I’ve never heard of this guy.

” I said, “He’s works with the agent.

” is that he’s one of David’s Atly Phillips people.

Chuck didn’t know who David Phillips was.

And he told me, I said, “He’s a tie back to me.

I’m a tieback to you.

” I said, “This makes me nervous.

I’m concerned about it.

” Mr.

Nickel told me, he said, “Jimmy, don’t worry about it.

So, I’ll talk to the boss.

” The only one he could have talked to was Sam.

If he talked to Sam, Sam evidently told him, “Don’t worry, I’ll take care of it.

” The only party that Sam could have called, and that’s Sam Jean Connor, that would have been David Phillips.

David Phillips was in the area that day.

I know that for a fact.

I didn’t see him.

I didn’t talk to him, but I know he was there.

Anyway, this party that was there that killed JD Tibet, he was brought in at a last minute notice that he had to be on standby.

And wherever Phillips went, he usually kept several people around that he could use, people that he needed whether he needs them or not.

They’re going to be available.

They always had, what do you call them? contract agents, operatives, cooperatives, or whatever.

He’s got people he can use.

If he needs something done, he can pick up a phone and have it initiated at a moment’s notice.

This party was evidently there on standby cuz he did not live in that area.

That’s why I was shocked to see him in my motel room.

So, evidently they took care of it that way.

Okay.

So, this party that shot Tippid, he was more connected to the agency than the mob to the agent.

He wasn’t tied to the mob.

He might have done some work for him along the way, but he was strictly one of David Phillips people cuz he did not even know Charles Nicoleti.

Are youware were you aware of anybody using radio communication in the plaza? No, I was not.

Did you ever hear of a man named James Hicks or Jim Hicks? I’ve heard the name, but I don’t know him.

You already said you saw Richard Kaine in the plaza.

Yes, Richard Kane was in the plaza.

Is there any chance he was a shooter? There’s all kind of chances, but like I say, do I know that? No, I can’t say he was or he wasn’t.

Do you think Mr.

Nicolleti was aware of the identities of any other shooters other than you and himself? If Mr.

Nicolleti had been aware, it would he would have been made aware of it by Sam Gene Kano.

And if he was aware of it, he wouldn’t tell me.

And if there was other shooters there, I can’t see where anybody would tell Nicoleti.

It’s very possible that Sam and Sam Jean Khan and David Phillips could have been talking.

But like I say again, if I know everybody in that area and I get stopped, I can name every shooter there if there’s other shooters there.

I’m not saying there is other shooters.

What I’m saying is this.

I have no need to know of everybody that’s involved in an operation.

What purpose would that serve? That’s like me going into a communist country on a covert operation and me knowing everybody all the other agents that are there in that field working.

And if I get captured, they all get executed.

Yeah.

So, the same thing goes when it comes down to crime.

You try to keep your people the least bit of no is possible because uh too many times maybe partners and that’s like I I can use one deal like for uh the one party back east here out of uh Philadelphia.

I did time with him in the federal prison.

His own brother gave him up.

His brother knew that he was a big- time cocaine dealer.

He was a dentist.

They call him Dr.

Snow.

I don’t remember his real name, but they call him Dr.

Snow.

His brother got busted with a nickel bag of weed in New York.

He gave his own brother up because he couldn’t do a year in the jail.

His brother told him, “I’ll give you a million dollars a year for every year they keep in jail.

I give you a million dollars cash.

Don’t don’t testify against me.

” He put his brother in jail.

Do you know Anthony Vincentiana? Yes, I did.

I did know Antonio Viano.

Yes.

And how did you know him? I met him in Miami and he was tied up with the JM Wave.

He was also tied up with the Alpha Group.

Uh he knew all the other people.

He was might say he was a little higher up in the ranks, but I met him and did you ever meet somebody you just like? Well, I don’t know.

I liked him.

He liked me.

You know, we had a good rapport.

He’s good sense of humor.

He could talk to you, you know, and he didn’t talk down to you.

Tell us about Jim Wave.

JM Wave, there was a special uh operation set up for a lot of broadcasting and we had a lot of people running a lot of covert activities out of it.

Basically a radio station there for doing a lot of propaganda stuff.

That was all under David Phillips.

And where was that located? That was in Miami.

Where in Miami? Oh god.

Out towards Homestead there.

Uh, okay.

Tell us about David Ferry.

David Ferry.

I won’t get into his personal lifestyle.

David Ferry.

I did not like David Ferry.

I’d only seen him on one or two occasions.

Uh, me.

I’m going to say he looked like a creep more or less.

He was stocky.

Heavy sav.

had real heavy eyebrows and uh basically I didn’t like the guy who’s a homosexual.

Okay.

Do you know any child molester? As far as I’m concerned, I knew a lot of things about what he was doing.

I didn’t approve of it.

But I’d like to say one thing about David Ferry.

He was a solid agent for the CIA.

He was on their payroll.

I don’t care what anybody says.

Yeah.

I’d like to ask uh James to tell us anything about his about his death.

F’s dead.

Yeah.

You know anything about David F’s death? Yes, I do.

He died of several brain hemorrhage, but the superior brain hemorrhage that David Ferry had that was brought on.

And I explained to a corner and I had this checked out.

He went and talked to him.

no matter who all they talked to or anything else.

But I also know that when warden Godinas was the warden here at Stateville Prison was on a Sunday morning, they made a call up here.

They wanted to come up and talk to me.

Some people, I’m not sure who it was that wanted to come talk to me.

They said they had a lure jet on standby.

And my reply was, “Stay fuel.

I got nothing to say to you.

” But the tissue tear in the brain itself was just above the pallet of the mouth.

The hemorrhage was inflicted.

Ice pig? No sir.

Nail file.

nail file gives you the stimulation of tear.

You could use a stiletto, thin blade knife, ice pick, but then you’d see what it is.

You’d get a clean cut.

With a fingernail file, you got a smooth edge.

You got a perforated edge, and when it goes through the tissue, it’s like a tear.

It’s like something ripping apart.

Do you know who did that? Yes, I do.

Was it you? Was it me? Of course not.

Not me.

I wouldn’t do that.

I’m not admitting to a murder on there.

JFK is bad enough, but nobody wants to prosecute me for JFK.

I’m fine.

Oh, okay.

Um, who killed David Ferry? I’m not saying, but you know who it was? I know who it was.

Yeah.

Okay.

Here’s a question I’ve always had.

General Rosselli was actually pretty well known and he was well known out in Hollywood.

He was kind of flashy dress.

very flashy, very flashy, very loud, liked to spend money and like for everybody to know basically what he was doing when he was in town.

He wanted everybody to know he was there.

Why would the mob put somebody like that in on such an important hit as JFK? Johnny Roselli had all the right connection.

The reason Johnny Rosselli was brought into all this, he had the right connection.

He was the last like I say between the government and the crime you know the crime people mouth what you want to call him outfit organization crime family you know different names for they brought him in on it not because of us and I think Chuck would use him more less specifically because of the connections and the cooperation and the help that we could receive.

This is only what I say.

This is not fact.

I got no document and proof on it.

Nobody never sit me down and told me that.

This is where I draw my own conclusions.

So he could kind of provide you with some highle cover, right? Highlevel cover from Johnny Roselli’s side.

And at this point at the game when I went down there, I did not know at that time that the CIA was heavily involved in any of this.

After I talked to David Phillips to let him know where I’m at and then when Lee Harvey Al shows up on the scene, I have at this point become aware only two people knew where I was.

Charles Nicollet and David Farah or David Phillips, excuse me.

Start over.

Okay.

At this point of the game, only two people know where I’m at.

Charles Nicolleti and David Phillips.

Lee Harvey Oswwell shows up at my hotel.

This tells me automatically David Phillips is in on it.

David Phillip knows what’s going down.

Otherwise, Oswell would never be there.

So, Oswell was working for the agency.

Oswell Oswell was CIA all the way.

Oswwell was CIA before I ever even knew any of these people.

Oswwell was recruited when he was in the Marine Corps.

Lee Harvey Oswwell knew David Phillips by several names.

He knew his real name.

He knew him by different aliases.

He knew him by different code names.

Lee Harvey Oswwell had known David Phillips a lot longer than I had.

And Phillips had several aliases.

Uh David Phillips, he used a lot of aliases.

One of his most famous one I can remember was Maurice Bishop.

And Maurice Bish has been a lot of controversy whether it was him or it wasn’t him.

He’s had other names.

But Ryan, like I said, I can’t even remember all the different names.

I can’t even remember all the names.

I’ve had on different passports with my picture on different pictures and everything, you know.

Where is your real name? My real name is James Sutton.

And you were born when? I was born January 24th, 1942 in Alabama.

And if you find my birth certificate, it will plainly state deceased at birth.

How was that arranged? I have no idea.

But I was trying to get a birth certificate for my own records and they could not locate one at first and the lawyer in Alabama went through everything and went to the capital and when he got through he found it 3 months later I had a birth certificate in there that says deceased at birth.

Now can the mob do something like that or is that the government? That’s only the government.

Mob knows a lot of things.

They got ways to get things done but when it comes into this kind of stuff that’s out of their category.

I’m going tell you when it comes to government and underhanded work, the mob, they’re kindergarten.

They’re kindergarten.

I might upset a lot of people in the family saying that, but they’re kindergarten when it comes to working with the government.

They’re the goldfish in the sharks pond.

What kind of man of was David Ali Phillips? David Ali Phillips was a very secure man, a lot of class, uh, quiet.

He was like dominating.

He demanded like attention when he was with you.

Uh, he was around.

He had a presence about him all his own.

He was like he was a command.

He was somebody when he said something you listened.

What kind of man was Charles Nicolleti? Gerald Nicolleti very quiet, well-defined.

I only heard Mr.

Nicolleti swear on a few occasions.

He did not use a lot of profanity like they portrayed him in double cross.

Charles Nicoleti mostly got upset when there was FBI involved.

And there were several different times that that happened.

But like I say, Nicoleti was a quiet type of person.

He didn’t go out talk about anything that he had done.

He didn’t go out and get drunk.

I never saw a man drunk.

He might take a sociable drink here and there, but he was not a man to use profanity.

You just uh told us we go.

Said that that was one of the times, right? Huh? That that was one of the times when he said, “Oh, we’re going.

” Oh, that was one of the time definitely when they called it off.

Another time I remember was in Melrose Park.

We had the car up on the grease rack in the shell station there.

Used to be a Broadway and division and there’s a car parked out front and I told Chuck, I said, “Mr.

Nadia,”I says, “I don’t know who it is over there.

We might have a problem.

” He looked over and he said, “Ah, I don’t know.

” He said, “We’ll watch him for a few minutes.

” So, they went ahead.

They serviced this car and they kept sitting out there and they parked a little waste down from the station like on the that would be on the uh east side of the street cuz Broadway runs north and uh yeah, north and south.

Division runs east and west.

And at that time the Shell station stood on the uh northwest corner.

Yeah.

Northwest corner.

On the northeast corner was a golf gas station and they was parked just beyond that in front of two flat down there.

They kept staring and they kept watching us.

The chuck said, “I got to see who they are.

” He says, “Jimmy,” he says, “sover me.

” So I told the kid doing the grease job on the car and he watches say, “Lord car a minute.

” When they lowered it, I walked around back and the overhead door had him pull that down so they couldn’t see what we were doing in there.

I opened the trunk up and I took a rifle out.

Got that out.

They reached the car back up in the air and I went over by one of the windows or crawl up on like the uh workbench back there and open one of the windows up and I went out the back way.

Then I crawled up on the roof and I got up behind the shell sign.

I told Chuck I says, “Give me two minutes and then go.

” He walked out.

He walked across the parking lot and he was well adjusted.

He had kind of like his right hand down by his little watch pocket like we carried a small caliber weapon there.

And uh I got the guy the driver like zeroed up.

Anybody picks up a gun, they’re going to get it.

He got to the middle of Broadway and the car pulled out and took off.

So we don’t know who it was.

But the only thing he said inside when it started to go when I started got the gun out, he got to be feds.

And that was one of those times he was very upset, but they used to really parano him.

Okay, these are stories we want to hear.

But yeah, I understand.

Yeah, we need to focus on these name because this is burning day, right? Did Wolf Man have any idea of those Mercury loads he made? Did he have any idea what they were going to use for uh when Wolf Man when asked him to make the special rounds? The only thing he ever asked me was he says, “Do you need any help?” He never asked me what I was doing cuz he would never breach that uh borderline, whatever you want to call it there.

And the trade, you just don’t ask people what they’re going out to do.

But when I told him what I wanted done and what I needed made, he told me to do it.

The only thing was he said, he kind of gr said, “You need any help?” And I said, “No, this is straight.

” And he said, “Okay.

” So, he really didn’t know.

He said, “See me in a couple of days.

” Uh, have you ever heard of uh you ever heard the story of Ed Hoffman? Yes, I’ve heard of it.

I don’t know who he is, but I’ve heard of him.

He’s the deaf guy who was up on Stimmans and he says he saw a guy essentially your position, but he saw him toss a rifle to somebody else.

But you got any? I never tossed anything to anybody.

Okay.

Never.

How did you guys know that the bubble top was off? Well, when Kennedy come down to Dallas, we had one concern.

We figured the limo might have a bubble top, you know, because they never it never went anywhere without it.

And if it’s raining, the only thing is we was told in advance if the top is on, it’s a walk away.

You know, you abort it, you leave it, we’ll do pick another place.

We’ll try again.

And that would have probably fallen to someone else.

But this question had been asked us.

How you going to get through the top? M I asked her was you, you know, using some pretty heavy artillery like, you know, using uh one of the old uh what do you want to call those things with the I can’t got the name on the tip of my tongue.

Armor piercing.

No, not armor piercing.

One of the rounds were knocking out tanks.

Bazookas.

Yeah.

Today we got lost rockets.

But we didn’t have lost rockets to run around with back then.

That’s something new that come down the pike.

But anyway, they said no.

They said we do it sensible.

But the thing was they had been instructed they were going to work on his ego because They tried to make Kennedy believe he shouldn’t go to Texas, that he should be afraid of Texas.

They worked on his ego said, “You got to use the bubble top.

You have to have the top on.

You can’t sit in an open car.

Uh you got to show you got to you got to let these whatever they think, you got to let them think, you know, you’re afraid of whatever.

” But there’s a high risk here.

You got to have the top on.

The more they worked on Kennedy about this, the more he wanted to top off.

Kennedy wanted to prove, I’m not scared of anything.

I want the top off.

I want to wave to the people.

I want to see the people pos I want to touch the people.

So they played on his ego.

The top was off.

Were you aware that David Ferry was involved among many other things in cancer research? Uh I did not know David Ferry was involved in anything in cancer research.

No, I did not.

Okay.

So you would do you got any thoughts about Jack Ruby’s cancer? Do you think that was natural or unnatural? I’m going to say it was injected.

There’s one thing I want to say.

When you talk about uh David Ferry for his cancer research, I have no knowledge of that at all.

But I do know he liked to play around with hypnosis.

I think he used it on a lot of young kids cuz he was in charge of the Civil Air Patrol.

Yeah.

For a second.

Back to that bubble top.

What would you have done if it would be all Well, back to the bubble top on the car.

If they had have had the top on, it was a walk away.

But we would have known that before he ever got to the plaza cuz we would have been informed if they come out and they picking him up and they got the top on, they’re not going to remove the top during the motorcade.

Nobody would have been there.

None of us would have been on hand to watch John F.

Kennedy come down the because I could care less about seeing the man.

But if the top would have been on, I would have already been on my way back to Mosquite.

And I’m quite certain that Mr.

Nickelodeon Rosselli would have been on their way somewhere else.

So if it would have rained, then it was a nogo.

If it was still rain, it was a nogo.

But when you plan something, all you can do is hope for the best.

Uh like a football, you know, you got to make the play.

Seconds are running out.

You go for the long one.

If it works, it works.

It don’t, it don’t.

You walk away.

To your knowledge, there was no plan B.

Pardon me.

To your knowledge, there was no plan B.

No backup plan.

There was no backup plan for that.

The only backup plan we had for that was at the top is zone.

It’s a no-go.

Here’s some questions Pam has for you.

Uh, what has changed in your life in recent years? Uh I think probably the biggest change in my life is and let me go back just a little bit further.

Before this change took place, I had no emotions or no feelings basically speaking for anyone at all.

My family never came first.

The agency came first.

Crime family came first.

Everybody was always ahead of my wife and my kids.

Wrong.

I know that.

I know that now.

I’ve got probably a lot of regrets, maybe some remorse for a lot of the things that I did do.

I’m sorry at times I wasn’t there to see my kids go to their little school plays or do their dances, recital or whatever.

I’m sorry I wasn’t there for the birthdays, for a lot of the Christmases, but those things are part of my life growing up.

This things that I accepted because to me other things were more important.

My family, my wife, my kids, they were way down on the list of priorities.

Wrong.

I know.

After I got here, when I got here, this place was pretty well wide open.

Place is very violent, wild, and you know, we just had recently had several lockdowns due to deaths here.

It wasn’t natural.

But a few years ago, what happened to me was I went to sleep one night.

I had a lot of hate in me.

I had a lot of anger in me.

I had a list of names.

Boy, I want to start writing down names and I want this person.

I want that person.

A lot of hate in me.

But I woke up during the night.

I found Jesus sitting by my bunk.

A lot of people say, “Yeah, it’s a dream.

” Maybe it was a dream.

It’s a dream to you, dream to him.

To me, it’s real.

And I’ll ask him, I says, “What are you doing here?” And he said, “I’ve come to tell you, there’s only one way.

” He said, “The Father sent me to tell you.

” He said, “That I’m for real.

God is for real.

That I’m for real.

” He says, “The only way to the Father is through me.

” So, we said, we talked for a little while.

I went back to sleep.

The next morning, I woke up.

All the hate was gone.

I used to wake up and come out of my cell every morning.

It’s not what am I going to do today, it’s who am I going to have to kill today or who am I have to stab today or who’s going to try to stab me? Who I got to fight, you know, because there’ve been a lot of fights here, a lot of stabbings.

But I had a new feeling in me.

I was real light, you know.

I felt like I loved everybody, you know.

Hey, how you doing? Boom.

I talked to people I never talked to before.

I even talked to the cops.

Hey, how you doing? What’s going on? Hey, hey, nice day.

Well, after a little while, I started slipping back again.

I got back to being the old Jimmy again.

And I started getting these other these angry feelings back from the fact, you know, you look at me the wrong way, I’m going to grab you, slam you into the wall, you know, whatever you do.

Uh, I got a second visit.

And when I got the second visit from Jesus, it’s really gotten my really got my attention.

And at this point, I’d already heard from this one girl, this one lady.

I don’t know if I should name her on tape or not, but I become romantically involved.

I become I fell in love with her.

I love her with all my heart.

probably love her more than I’ve ever loved anything in my life.

But we were talking and writing and she was a good Christian lady and she had told me a few different things.

And so the second visit I got, Jesus told me to get my life in order that father was going to call me home.

I thought, well, Jesus, I’m going to die and I’m going to die right away.

And so I told her on the phone still she was crying a little bit.

You know, I was a little sad over, you know, this and that.

But then I was reading in the Bible and I was reading in Matthew chapter 24 about the earth giving the birth pains and all this.

what God was telling me, Jesus was telling me, God’s not calling me home this stage of the game, but be prepared.

Get ready for heaven so I can have a life hereafter.

And I’m reading all about this in Matthew.

And then it struck on me what it was.

So I called her up and I told her and so, but like I say, since then, I’ve lived a whole different life here.

I used a few words profanity in this interview strictly for the reason of what was said.

There was actual words verbatim.

But when I’m not like not in this interview, I try not to use vulgar language.

I try not to hate people.

I try to maintain good thoughts.

But in here, that’s hard to maintain good thoughts.

Very hard in here.

But I work at it very hard.

And I pray every night, every day.

I don’t run around with my Bible.

I don’t run around trying to tell you all about the word of God.

That’s not my job.

You want to hear about it, I’ll be more than happy to sit down and talk to you about it, but I don’t try to push it on anybody.

We have very a lot of different kinds of religions here.

Why uh briefly tell me why you’re in prison over there? I’m in prison for the specific reason.

When I come out of the federal prison, I did a federal stretch and I was out for a little while.

People started trying to kill me.

When they started trying to kill me the first time, I was at Long Quinton Road and Rollins Road in Round Lake Beach shortly past midnight driving a little Chevy Chevet.

And the cops had been harassing me there.

They knew who I was.

Every time they see me, they’d handcuff me, get me out of the car, and my papers blow out.

They throw all my stuff down the street.

This particular night, I pull up the stoplight there.

I’m on Quinton Road, fixing to make a right-hand turn on Rollins Road.

I’m staying with my aunt and uncle at this time.

They’re about two blocks down from there.

I looked up in the rearview mirror and I seen a car pulling up behind me with no lights.

Next lane.

And I thought, it’s cops again.

You know, I’m going to get hassle again.

It’s not a squad car, but I just figured it’s detectives, you know.

is it pulls up alongside of me.

I’m looking in the mirror, sitting by the door, the little door mirror on the side, and I see an SMG come up.

What anybody don’t know that is small machine gun, automatic weapon.

As I see it coming out of the window, I roll across the seat, hit the door, hit the ground, roll back up against the rocker panel of the car.

They put 30 holes in my car, full clip they put into it.

As they were pulling away, I come up off the ground with my piece, and I got up about four rounds.

I’m on federal parole at that point.

And I’m not supposed to be carrying a weapon, but you never find me without a weapon.

I got off four rounds, took the back window out.

They kept going.

I jumped back in my car, took a riot on the Rollins Road, went down the Grove Avenue, pulling the house of my uncles at 1620 Grove, went in there and got the tarp from my uncle out of the garage and put it over the car so they couldn’t see the bullet holes.

That was the first attempt on my life.

When was that? Uh, that was I got out of federal prison 88.

This year’s late ‘ 89, early 90 I guess.

been any attempts on your life in prison? Not in prison.

I’ve had a lot of fights, but that’s not attempts on my life.

I mean, the things that happen here is uh it’s just day-to-day living.

I got a few scars and knives here and there, but that’s irrelevant there.

You don’t think it was people trying to take you out? Oh, no.

Definitely not.

Well, and certainly wouldn’t have anything to do with the JFK job? No, definitely not.

And when they started trying to kill me on the street there, the first attempt on my life in the free world as I call it, next day I went to see somebody down in the city and I went up and I asked them a specific question if we had a problem.

I said I went and I did my federal time.

I said, I got busted on the chop shops.

I didn’t take nobody down with me.

I said I went kept my mouth shut.

I didn’t testify.

I didn’t give nobody up.

I took the conviction.

I done my time.

What’s the problem? We got a problem.

Let me know.

And he told me, he said, Jimmy, he says, he always called me Jimmy.

He said, Jimmy, boy, he says, come down.

I’m down.

He said, “Listen to me.

” He said, “You got no problem with us.

” He said, “You did your thing.

” He said, “Hey, you didn’t have no problem.

When you was down, you got money, looked after certain people for you, took care of your family.

You had no problems when you come out.

” You went to the restaurant.

He said, “Everybody parked.

Everybody come by to see you.

” He said, “We dropped a lot of envelopes.

” He said, “You have money when you come out.

Everybody looked after you when you come out.

” They said, “That’s respect.

” Don’t think we’re after you.

Said whatever you done is for your previous employers, not us.

That’s on the other side of the fence, the people that you worked for before.

He said, “Them not us, Jimmy.

” He said, “I give you my word on that.

” The second attempt, I was on my motorcycle, and it’s a long story.

I won’t go through all that.

Hold a minute.

So, you’re saying that attempt was not the mob.

That was the agency.

That was the agency.

That was the government.

Somebody in the government.

I believe government has tried to take you out.

That’s what I honestly believe.

Okay.

Make a statement.

Now, then the second time on my attempt, oh, you’re talking about making a statement with the government.

Yeah.

after I talked to the certain parties in Chicago down there in the city about them trying to kill me and he’s telling me that was my previous employers.

What we’re talking about here were talking about a government agency.

I won’t say which agency it was that tried to take me out but I know at that time I was had people in the DoD on me because I had taken certain uh material off the uh computer at Oxford from the Arsenal.

So I worked in the office.

I had an excess classified material there for building uh new tanks, new helicopters, everything.

I had the gun imp placements off one of the black hawk helicopters.

I had the allocations for everything.

I had the rate of firing.

Anything was faster because we made a lot of the stuff there.

We made the nitrine cable to fire a side winder missile inside a federal prison.

Okay.

Anyway, the second attempt was now I realize this here is not the crime family after me.

It’s got to be a government agency.

The second attempt on my life was at late at night they ran me over my motorcycle.

They hit me so hard they bent the frame on it.

They total the motorcycle out.

That’s all on record.

Next time and come around the third time with these two offduty officers.

One of them is David Austster.

They will never admit they had a contract on my life.

And I want to stay one day.

I got no I got no hard feelings against either one of these officers.

Even though they tried to kill me.

I don’t take this anything personal.

I take it they were doing a job.

They’re doing what they was paid to do.

They just blew it.

But the thing of this, I’m here because somebody opened up on my partner and me.

They tried to kill us in broad daylight on May 7th, 1991, 3:15 p.

m.

, maybe 3:30 in the middle of Route 12 in a little place called Buffalo Grove where between Quinton Road and Long Road on Route 12.

They forced us off the road.

When they forced us off the road, they say it was a high-speed chase.

It really wasn’t a high-speed chase.

They spotted me at a gas station.

I didn’t even see them.

I paid for the gas, got in the car.

My partner David Moley, he was driving.

As we pulled out from there, they got in behind us.

They got up alongside of us.

He started hit the gas to go and I told him, “Now, hold it up.

Pull over.

We don’t run from nobody.

” And my exact We don’t run.

Pull it over.

We’ll deal with it.

They cut us off like he pull into like a part of a driveway.

It was gravel, a little fast.

He hit the brakes.

We split into a little tree.

The tree we hit wasn’t any bigger than my arm.

I threw the door open on the right hand side to exit the car.

This was a leashed car.

As I threw the door open exit, they drove their car, which is a white unmarked car, into the side of our car.

When I seen the front of the car coming at the door, I jerked my leg back up off the ground so I wouldn’t get it cut off and they were broken and dug my head.

And when they hit the door, the door hit me and knocked me back into the car.

I bounced off the dash.

And at that point, they opened fire.

My partner, David Moley, very good man.

He saved my life on several occasions in the free world.

His left hand is paralyzed.

He’d been shot up a couple times before in shootouts.

He can’t use his left hand.

At this point, he’s leaning down, fumbling under the seat of the car, looking for his gun, looking for a 9 millimeter.

And I’m yelling, “Get out.

Get out.

Get out.

” And to me, it seemed like it’s taking forever.

When he got the nine, he put it up under his arm.

He’s got to close his arm.

Reach across, open the door to exit.

This is only a few seconds, but it seemed like a lifetime to me.

We come out of the car.

When he come out, he took the first shot.

David Astra tag went down.

At this point, when I come out, there was no need to even shoot.

The other officer, Bitner, I didn’t know they were cops at that time.

Neither did my partner.

We had no idea they were police officers.

He crawled up under the car and he was screaming.

I guess they’re going to kill us both.

They’re going to kill us both.

But David after tag was already down.

I grabbed the uh AK-47 out of the car.

I had it in the back seat.

I went picked that up out of the storage shed for the simple reason.

I’d had a meeting prior to those people and somebody had poked me in the chest and I just knocked them down and stumped on them a couple times and told them, “Don’t ever threaten me to tell me you’re going to trunk me.

If you do, do it first and then come and tell me that you done it.

” I went told Dave, I said, “We got problems.

” I went and got the AK-47 out.

Got the ammo can out.

I had a 30 round clip in the AK-47.

This is all in the law books.

The ammo can have 520 rounds of ammo in it.

David Astra tag can tell you how many rounds we had for the 9 millimeters, the clips, all the loose rounds.

I went into a little swamp.

Took him several hours to get me out.

The AK-47 tractor spring, it broke.

It wouldn’t fire.

Any witnesses to all of this? A lot of people around.

Lot of people.

We had traffic backed up from uh the shooting incident there all the way to Wisconsin and all the way to the city of Chicago.

So, if they who opened fire first? They opened fire first and they were in an unmarked car.

Unmarked car.

Plane closed.

Plane closed.

They had a windbreaker on.

They were wearing a badge on their gun belt underneath the windbreaker jacket sitting in a car.

They were shooting from inside the car.

David Officer Tag had exited coming around shooting when David Mley dropped him.

Did they ever say you were under under arrest or No.

Did they identify? Did they yell police officers? Nobody identified nothing.

I mean, the shooting started.

How many shots were fired before your partner took the shot? Well, I’m going to say there were they got off probably the first 14 shots.

They say they fired three and 11 out of 52.

They said we fired the rest of them, but there’s not that many shell cases on on hand.

And if the only weapons that were fired were 9 mm that day and my weapon hadn’t been fired, that leaves three clips, it’s only 45 rounds of 15 rounds to 9 millm in a staggered clip.

And they didn’t fire that many.

They still had rounds in theirs.

So there’s no way 52 rounds were fired that day.

Oh, there’s all kind of witnesses that seen what went down.

There’s witnesses that will plainly state on who got out and who shot who and who shot first.

That’s all in the court documents.

So, how’d you get a how they can get a conviction if there were witnesses to say they fired first? That was very simple.

We were tried in Lake County, Illinois.

It didn’t take them long to convict us.

Everybody on the jury was related to a cop.

You don’t shoot a cop and walk away.

You shoot a cop, it don’t matter if it’s self-defense or not.

Were the witness reports uh allowed as evidence? Uh some of those were denied.

I had witnesses that come there to testify on my behalf and it was irrelevant.

They were not permitted to testify.

My own aunt was not permitted to testify at my trial.

As far as I’m concerned, the frame was self-defense over and out.

And I didn’t even shoot nobody.

Tell us a little bit about your uh military background and when and how you recruited into the CIA.

I went into the military in January 1959, regular army.

I went into uh Fort Leonwood, Missouri.

Took my basic there.

From there, I went to Fort Poke AIT training there.

Uh I went to Bragg for Airborne.

Went to Laos.

In Laos, I got in trouble over there.

I’m not really in trouble.

We had some problems.

I executed two of my own men.

I was court marshal.

I wrote my own court marshal.

I wrote the report up.

They got me court marshal.

I didn’t write the court marshal step, but the report I wrote was a result of it.

And they uh knew that I was right.

Every JCS knew that I was right.

I went for 90-day evaluation and I was recruited out of the Veterans Hospital.

And uh there has been claim numbers located on that.

Some say they’re not mine, but they were.

Phillips recruited you or Shackley recruited? Shackley recommended me.

Phillips is the one that recruited me.

He come to see me and told me he had a job waiting for me.

I walked out of the uh veterans hospital.

Where was that? That was there in Maywood, Illinois.

Uh, who was director at that time? I don’t even remember that far back.

I don’t remember.

Dulies were still there.

If he was already out or not, I’m not I don’t remember.

At that time, I knew virtually nothing about the CIA to speak of.

I only knew it existed.

Did you go through any training or they just I took I had he took me unlike I was at for what he wanted me for.

I’d already been through all my training, advanced training for uh to go to Laos.

I’ already been to Laos and back again and he wanted me to work and train some of the Cubans.

Are you a pilot? Uh, I can fly.

Yes.

Did you ever get a pilot’s license? I had a pilot’s license at one time.

Yes.

Did you fly for? I flew basically for myself.

Now, if you want to ask me who was paying me, the agency was paying me.

I did a lot of things.

I flew a lot of planes.

Uh, but we uh I didn’t have no company name or nothing.

I just had a plane and went up.

A lot of it was considered to go back through Southern Air Transport, what we call SAT, the CIA for Yeah.

CIA priority company.

Yeah.

What about DEA? You ever worked for them? Never worked for the DEA.

I had a chance at one time and I turned it down.

That’s when they had what they call the Halloween massacre, I believe it was.

And I’m going to say I think it was Bobby Ray Inman that fired like 3,000 contract agents at one time.

That’s back in the 70s, was Yeah.

And at that time, this when they were forming the DEA and they wanted a lot of people to go to work the DEA because they had had uh operations in that part of the country down there in Central American around and they needed people that knew the area and I was approached and I was asked if I would be willing to join that force and I told them no I will not.

I’m not going to work for anybody where you arrest people.

How long do you figure the government CIA, FBI as official agencies has known about your participation in the JFK hit? Well, I didn’t know it at the time, but I have learned and I’ve seen the names.

I’ve even been given the name of it that the party that was the informant and he was uh tying between both the CIA and the FBI and he was the one and how he knew I was in Daily Plaza, I don’t know, but he told the FBI that I was in Daily Plaza and that I was one of the shooters.

When When did that happen? And he told them that in early as 1964 and nothing was done about it.

I never even knew anybody knew about him till I seen some of the documents here uh a couple of years back.

Is it true that during the Clinton administration that you were presented as a threat to national security? That was in 1998 uh historian for the 82nd Airborne.

He was doing a lot of research area on me.

His name was John Grady.

He recently passed away which I’m sorry to say.

Very very very nice man.

He also is a good veteran.

and he served in World War II, but he did a lot of research on me and checked a lot through a lot of people, found out to me to be credible.

He verified a lot of things that him and I discussed.

He come here to visit me.

And when him and I was corresponding, he was approached by the Secret Service and they warned him that I was a threat to national security.

And in 1998, I don’t remember what month it was, but Janet Reno and President Bill Clinton at that time declared me as a threat to national security.

It was basically for training manuals and formulas and uh information they retrieved out of one of my storage sheds when they raided it.

Boy, today under homeland security, they had probably have you as a terrorist threat since you know how to make bones.

That could be.

I know there is a US Marshall detainer on me at this time.

US Marshals? What? There is a US Marshall detainer on me at this time.

What does that mean? That means the day I walk out of here, the US marshals will be here to pick me up.

They want to talk to me.

There is no outstanding charges or no charges against me.

What they have against me is the detainer.

All they want to do is talk to me.

What they want to know is they want to be notified when I leave here.

In other words, all I know is that he was a historian for the 82nd Airborne and he had been hired to do a research on me and he started researching me and after he did a lot of research, he contacted me for more information.

He come here to stateville prison to visit me from Florida.

We visited, we talked, I gave him dates, information, and things and he went he verified a lot of it.

I helped necessary.

Were your records missing? Pardon me.

Why was it necessary? Were your records missing or When it got down to my records, nobody had ever heard of me.

It took uh Mr.

uh Grady I believe it was don’t hold me this figure I’m going to say it was roughly 18 months to find any military trace of me and he found them in the archives in St.

Missouri.

Once those records had been discovered and he found them and he got down claim numbers, serial numbers, etc.

, etc.

Few months later, they went back to retrieve some more information from those records and the records were missing and there was a thing there that said, uh, no more information is available.

Do you know the term sheep dipping? Uh, sheep dipping is a very common practice.

What sheep dipping is, that’s the old term for it.

Back when I was first in, like we went to Laos.

There was no Americans going over there.

I mean, let’s face it, no Americans went to Southeast Asia until like ‘ 62 or 63.

But what a lot of people don’t realize is Southeast Asia is the old Indochina.

We were there during World War II.

We never come out of there.

And the old saying goes, India Alpha Charlie or as they go, Charlie India Alpha went up into northern part of Indochina, never come out.

They went up there for the drug trade, the opium trade, the heroin because that’s the golden triangle.

And that’s where going way ahead in years, that’s where the golden uh the body bags and the stuff coming out of Vietnam was all at stashed in human bodies coming out of the corpses.

And you go and you’re sterile.

You don’t care.

You wear no dog tags.

You’re not registered to any country to anybody.

If you’re caught, you’re retrieved.

You’re sterile.

What sterile means is there’s no tiebacks to anybody.

You’ve got no trading validity.

So what they do to a mercenary, they stand him up and they shoot him.

He’s executed and you can’t say you work for anybody because they’re not going to believe anyway because you can’t prove it.

So when you go sheep up, you go sterile, you’re on your own.

In other words, your ass is hanging out off of the limb.

Be careful it don’t get chopped off.

And that’s a common practice.

Common practice.

Still practice.

Still used today.

At what level do you think the decision was made to hit Kennedy? I would say that decision was made higher up.

Way high up.

I’m going to say higher than Sam Gingai.

Oh, way higher.

He higher than LBJ.

I would say much higher than LBJ.

LBJ was fixing to go to prison.

A lot of people may not realize that, but he was in a lot of trouble.

Jed Garoover, he was in a lot of trouble.

Uh, but that’s that’s different ballgame right there.

But they was they relished by his death.

But Jed Garoover had knowledge of Kennedy’s assassination 6 months in advance.

And that’s documented records from the National Security Agency because they forwarded the information to him because they picked it up on the link on their link out of Scotland.

Are you aware of JFK’s attempt to issue interest free money? Uh I didn’t know that until very recently.

Very recently I just read a book called Rule by Secrecy by Jim Mars.

And that’s the first time I ever heard that John F.

Kennedy had authorized money to be printed.

I always thought it was by the Federal Reserve.

But I got to say like I’ve never read much in that field.

Uh I’ve never uh cared about JF Kennedy.

I’ve never read about him.

I know very little about John F.

Kennedy.

Um do you uh are you remorseful about shooting Kennedy for many years? No, I wasn’t.

But as a time goes by, I’m not saying remorseful for shooting Kennedy.

Maybe I’m more remorseful for how it affected this country and for the things it’s done.

Maybe John Kennedy did do some good things for this country.

I’m not really sure, but I got a lot of remorse for a lot of things that I’ve done, but that’s been the simple reason I’ve got my life turned around a little bit.

So, I can’t be as hard as I used to be.

I try to have a lot of compassion for my fellow man.

But for John F.

Kennedy, got to be honest.

Yeah, let’s say I got a little remorse there for him because uh not specifically maybe him, but like for his family, for the kids and all.

But at the time when we acted, I felt that I was right in what we were doing.

Uh Why did you dislike the man? I dislike Kenny.

Reason you got to understand I didn’t like Kennedy for one reason.

I didn’t know the man personally.

Never met the man.

Never seen him in person as before.

I know the whole thing was I was heavily involved in training for the Bay of Pigs.

I didn’t go with them.

I wasn’t on the shoulder.

I wasn’t a soldier.

I didn’t go there and fight.

I never fired a shot.

I trained them in sitting up uh demolitions making bombs.

Uh weapons ambushes.

We call them mas, mechanical ambushes, uh, firing weapons, train them in weapons trade and some handtohand combat.

What I did wasn’t all that important, but you get to know guys.

You work with them all day.

You out there at the fire of the night.

You sleep out there in the wilderness.

You know, you live together for a while.

They get trained.

They go away.

If I’d have had my choice, I’d have went with them.

Luckily, I didn’t.

But when they went there and they got slaughtered, got arrested, put in prison all their lives, tortured, killed, it was a mess.

All because Kennedy and we had all kind of firepower sitting out there waiting.

We got to had some good airplanes there.

They shapped him bad.

Kennedy wouldn’t do it.

He got scared.

He wouldn’t go for it.

When I say Kennedy got scared, he was scared of uh he was scared of crew chap rushing them.

But the whole thing was this.

That’s one of those things.

They called it off.

It was a no-go.

They had no support.

They went in.

They got their ass shot off.

So you felt like Kennedy had betrayed him? Oh, Kennedy betrayed he I felt like he really betrayed me even though he didn’t know even know who I was but he betrayed the operation itself and this was a government sanctioned operation without a doubt and when this happened and uh then later I found out that a lot of the people that we trained supposed to been there they were put on a I want to call it a banana boat like a freighter and these people they were trucked around there are several hundred men on this on this uh this freighter and they’re giving them like a fiveday joy ride around the Gulf of Mexico instead of taking them over there to fight.

And these guys, these Cubans, I mean, they were dedicated.

They were dedicated where these were, well, when you get down to a what’s a patriot, what’s a terrorist? The Cuba had been terrorist.

That’s the patriots.

Okay, a patriot and a terrorist.

The only difference is what side defense you’re on.

Everybody’s fighting for what they believe in.

But these Cubans, they were fighters.

They they wanted to go and they were very, very upset with the agency and a lot of other people because they didn’t make the thing.

During that time, during the time of the Bay of Pigs, while you were training, moving around the Caribbean, no name key and all like that, you ever hear the name George Herbert Walker Bush? Oh, yeah.

What was his role? George Herbert Bush, I don’t know, a lot of people ain’t going to believe this, but he worked for his CA back as early as 1961 that I know of.

How’d he work for him? What did he do? Uh, I don’t know what all he did, but he did a lot of recruiting work.

I know he was there at the beginning for what we call uh group 40, special operations group, group 40.

And if you wonder what group 40 was, assassination group.

Do you have any proof of what you’ve told us in regards to the Kenny assassin? When it gets down to this part about a lot of people ask a lot of different questions about things.

Uh the one thing that I could verify right now which cannot be made public is a ledger diary ledger whichever you prefer to call it uh is focus of papers and things that uh Charles Nicolleti gave to me before he was killed.

Things got pretty active here.

Uh Sam Gian Connor was the first one to be killed and that was in uh 75 and I’m one of I’m not sure maybe September it was 75 go there he was killed the night he was killed Johnny Roselli was in town I saw Johnny Rosselli at the airport and when Johnny Roselli come in he didn’t we didn’t talk or anything I was there to pick somebody else up that come on that flight just by coincidence and I picking up a party that I did a lot of work for collecting money and things but anyway I seen Johnny.

We just nodded each other.

He had another man willing.

When they left, we was right behind them.

They got in their vehicle outside.

We got in our took off.

We went down the road.

We went down uh River Road proceeding south.

And the kid with me said the only place Johnny could be going over to see Sam.

Uh Fifth A on River Road there in Belmont.

They had a place they called the Blue Horizon.

Johnny pull in there momentarily let the guy with him out.

Whoever this guy was, he wasn’t going to Sam’s house because Sam didn’t like a lot of people come to his house.

And if he didn’t know him, they wasn’t going to get in anyway.

And Johnny went on.

I went my way.

Johnny Roselli went his Johnny Roselli.

The next morning I woke up, Sam Gene Connor had been ex been executed gangland style.

Well, he was killed.

Bill’s law for me, Johnny Roselli had to be the one to do it cuz he was there.

I know he went to Sam’s house that night.

The following year, Johnny Rosselli was killed.

When Johnny Rosselli was killed, the party I’m figure is the same guy that he probably dropped off.

There was two people killed down there in uh Tampa, St.

Pete, there in that area that was got rid of at the same time.

One was Johnny Roselli, the other one, another party, unknown, whoever it was.

I don’t remember the name of him now, but evidently it was a friend of his that had traveled to Chicago with him.

I figured he knew something and somebody took him out too because they knew that Johnny Brazili what he had done.

Okay, this guy, he might have told this guy, this guy knew.

They got rid of him.

And when it comes down to it, the crime family did not have Sam Gian Connor killed.

I don’t know who killed him except for Johnny Roselli there, but I believe that the government ordered the contract killing on Sam Gian Conor.

I believe the government is the one that killed Johnny Roselli to shut him up so he couldn’t talk.

All of this was about the time of the House Select Committee on Assassin.

All of it.

Yes.

The follow that was the tie in.

Pardon me.

Oh, definitely.

But anybody that knew Sam Gian Conor, they knew Sam Gian Connor would have never talked.

He’d have went to jail.

He’d have kept his mouth shut.

He would not talk.

The following year, Johnny Roselli, he got killed.

They silenced him.

And then in April uh what was it April 19th or January maybe no March March 29th this the night that uh Charles Nicolleti was killed and he was supposed to go testify before some committee and he was killed at the Golden Horns right there in Melrose Park there on North Avenue and uh Mannheim Road the Golden Horns restaurant and I thought at first maybe somebody the family had hit him because we knew there was trouble and right before his death he’d give me this package He told me, he said, “This is my life insurance.

” He said, “If I need it, I want you to have it.

You can always get to it.

” He said, “And if anything happens to me,” he says, “you might need it someday.

” So, what he gave me was I took it and I went out and got me some cheesecloth.

I wrapped a little package up and I put a little metal box.

I went out and I dug a hole and I buried it, put it away and covered it all up.

So, it’s about a week, week and a half later, you know, John or Chuck was killed.

after he was killed.

Right after that, maybe another week to 10 days later, I had uh two places on Lake Street there in Maldos Park.

One was a restaurant called the Coffee Cup.

It’s no longer there.

It’s been closed down.

They put a parking lot there for the West Lake Hospital.

And right down below it going east on the following block down there, which would been the 1100 block.

I had a club there, social club.

And what that was, we did bookmard games there.

We had a couple of pool tables in there.

And that’s where a lot of the guys come there and hung out at.

Uh we didn’t have any booze there.

We didn’t have any women there.

what we did.

You want to gamble, you come there and you gamble.

You come there and you hung out to be with the guys.

But when people uh come around, come to the club there to gamble and play.

I didn’t charge them for nothing.

I wanted something I call a restaurant up.

So this is about oh 11:00 11:30 that night.

I called up to the restaurant and I told my grill man called Gorilla fix me up uh a couple dozen hamburgers and fries, dozen black coffees and get it ready.

And he said, “Hey boss, let me bring it down to the club.

You crazy.

Stay where you’re at.

Stay in the res.

you don’t belong down there.

Stay up there.

Cuz gorilla, he love to come down there and hang out and gamble and everything else.

And I had him working behind the grill.

I said, “When you get it fixed, give me a boss when it’s ready to be picked up.

” He said, “Okay, boss.

” Cuz he always called me boss.

Got ready.

Call back down the club.

Hey, boss.

It’s ready.

You want to pick it up? Said, “I’ll run it down if you want to.

” I said, “Nah, don’t worry.

Come and get it.

” So, put it in the box.

So, he had a cardboard box.

He put it in be ready to go.

So, like always, we’ve done this many times, time after time after time.

There’s nothing unusual about it, you know.

So I walk out of the club.

It’s nice night out, you know.

So I walk down to the corner and the car’s coming down off the side street on the lake street.

Well, it comes up does like, you know, rocking for a Hollywood stop.

Comes up the stop sign and stops, hits the brakes, and kind of rocks back.

I step back up on the crib so I don’t get run over.

I’m thinking nothing about it.

Just nonchotly, you know.

The next thing I know, somebody sticks something out the window, then I got sprayed in the face and I hit the ground.

I don’t remember falling down.

When I come too, I was strapped up, tied up, blindfolded, and uh I went through a pretty severe torture test and all this here has been vertified also.

What they wanted, they wanted the ledger.

They never got it.

When they got through with me, my uh legs were still taped together.

My arms wrist were still taped behind my back.

They threw me out of a car out there inher up.

police come out there.

Some of them recognized me.

Everybody in town, as long as I’ve been missing, everybody figured I was dead.

Did when they threw you out of the car, do you think they thought you were dead? Oh, they thought I was dead.

Definitely.

Otherwise, they would have never left me alive.

That’s why I always That’s why I’ve always blamed the FBI for it because the family or the CA with a couple of holes in the back of my head and four or five inside the mouth through the pallet gang execution style.

These people, they didn’t do that.

When I lost conscious and couldn’t be brought back, evidently they figured I was dead.

They didn’t even bother to untape me nothing.

I was still naked.

They threw me out of the car and in the nude, ankle still taped, hands behind my back, everything still taped up.

And so the mer police, they knew who I was.

They picked me up, they took me in to their place, wanted to put me in the hospital, they took me over the emergency room, as a matter of fact, and then they made a couple of phone calls and notified my wife.

And uh my wife had a heart attack cuz as soon as she answered the phone they said Elmer’s police uh Miss Files we have found your husband and when she said that she just knew I was dead you know so she broke down she got all hysterical her mother was there then uh they got a hold of gorilla and they all come out there to get me they took me home they would put me in the hospital I’m not going to the hospital take me home I couldn’t even talk I’m writing notes I want to go home I want to go home I’m scrabbing it out on paper my throat I had screamed so much I had no voice left and uh so gorilla he’s sitting in the house with me cuz if I had to go to the bathroom he’d pick me up carry me to the bathroom and he’s sitting there I got a Remington model A70 on the side of a stamp law enforcement only stock eight rounds in it I had a gun car in the driveway one on each end of the block some of the broadview police they said man you need help cover you we’ll park our cars at this no I got my own guys here don’t worry about it just don’t let nobody mess with them they said we got you covered your guys are okay don’t worry about it So over the next three days, like there four days till I get to where I could talk again.

Gorilla stayed there at the house with me.

He didn’t go home.

And they never got the ledger.

That’s still missing.

Not missing.

I know where it is.

And let me clarify one thing.

Nobody in the world knows where that is but me.

It’s right here.

Nobody else can ever take them to it.

Still your insurance policy.

It’s still it.

And if I die, all those secrets in that book go to go to my grave with me.

Now, what’s what’s all in that little package? That a little box, right? It’s a little box.

Little package inside.

cheesecloth inside a metal box.

What’s in there? What is in there in this side? This here, this ledger.

What they want, I got a few other things in there, but what they want is this ledger because it’s got every just about basically every murder that was carried out in the Chicagoland area.

It’s got dates, it’s got names, figures of money, different things, reasons why, people who ordered it, anything in there about the JFK hit.

You’ve got uh there’s a couple little lines in there.

It’s got JFK down.

It’s got the date on it.

Basically, that’s it.

Anything else in there that’s concerns the assassination? Uh, no, just that.

Just the date and the name and everything, but it’s all in Chuck’s own handwriting.

What was in the package was I disposed of a lot of it, like Secret Service identification.

I didn’t need that.

Uh, I disposed of the little map, the last change.

That was irrelevant.

I burned all that stuff.

I’ve got rid of all that.

The only thing I kept was the ledger.

The ledger pertain basically to uh the contracts from around town, local people, people that was paid, people that was hit, the dates, when it happened, and sometime the reason why.

Well, why would the why would the FBI care about all that? Oh, they’d love that cuz they could put a lot of people in jail, and they could clear a lot of cases.

Oh, they could have cleared a lot of cases.

They could close the door on a lot of murder cases.

I’m going to say probably somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe 60 60 contract killings in Chicago over the years there.

Why did you burn the motorcade route? I didn’t need it.

It wasn’t important to me.

What’s it good for? That was only another admission to a part of a murder.

Evidence.

Gerald Nicolleti is dead at this point.

The only thing I’m going to hold is that ledger.

Like he said, the ledger is everything.

Diary, ledger, whatever you want to call it.

But, uh, everything else I disposed of.

I had no need for it.

Yeah.

Uh, tell us a little bit about Lee Harvey Oswald and your impression of him.

My impression of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lear Boswell is a very quiet type person, secluded, very private, mildmannered, you might say.

He wasn’t one day.

He didn’t do a lot of boasting or bragging.

He didn’t do a lot of cavalaring.

I mean, what he did, he kept to himself.

The Harvey Oslo, as far as I can, I like the guy.

Very intelligent.

Very intelligent.

When we got into certain subjects, I mean, he gonna make me look like a dummy.

Let’s face it.

So he’s a lot better educated than what Oh, he’s a lot better educated than what people say.

Lee Harvey Oswel, he had very good self-control because he had a little scar up on his lip and I asked him one time how he got it and he told me was in the Marine Corps.

Somebody hit him with the butt of a rifle up here.

I thought you must have ripped their guts out or someone ripped their ass out.

He said, “No, he said I didn’t do that.

” What do you mean? He said he’s an accident.

He said, “I didn’t get upset about it.

” But that’s the type of person he was.

He was calm.

He was collect capable of killing someone.

No.

Lee Harvey Oswwell.

I’m Everybody’s capable of killing somebody.

Let’s face it.

You got your back to the wall.

But is Lee Harvey Oswald a killer? No.

He wasn’t an assassin.

No.

Uh, do you think uh the American public really wants to know the truth of the Kenny assassination? Oh, I don’t think they really do.

I don’t think they really care.

But one more thing about Lee Harvey Oswell.

Lee Harvey Ow.

When I say he wasn’t a killer or anything like that, Lee Harvey Oswwell, he had it all up here.

Very, very intelligent.

And I said he had a good IQ and he held a top secret security clearance.

And there’s another thing I’d like the state and get on record.

They talk about Lee Harvey Oswall this and that and him running off to Russia.

The only way Lee Harvey Oswwell could have went to Moscow.

He held a top secret security clearance when he was on the base in Japan.

You hold a top secret security clearance and people can go check the city anywhere.

In the days of the Cold War, you did not jump on a plane and fly to a communist country.

And I don’t care who you was.

You had to be cleared for it.

The only people that could have engineered that for him to go to Moscow was the CIA.

And the Russians were so scared of Lee Harvey Oswwell over there, not fearful of what he’d do to him, they knew what was going down.

They gave him a place to stay and he wound up marrying Marie over there.

And they were too happy to put him on a plane to send him back to the US.

Taking money.

Yeah.

What was going down then? What was the mission for Lee Harvey also? I have no idea what the mission was, but he went over there for some reason.

I never asked him.

He never told me.

I never asked him why he went to Russia, but you cannot tell me that he was disgruntled with this country and he wanted to go there and be a member of the Communist Party.

There’s no way.

He took a cover and he went and they just wouldn’t buy the story.

Would you describe him as patriotic? Uh I would say leave he did a lot of work for this country.

He everything he did was based basically on this country.

He was not a traitor.

I don’t care what anybody says.

All the research based everybody can say all they want.

I know Lee Harvey Oswel.

wasn’t that type of person.

He wasn’t a traitor.

Has uh any other journalist other than myself come and talk to you? Is a journalist outside of Joe West and Bob Burnon? No, I’ve never given any other interviews to anybody.

You didn’t talk to Mike Cochran? Mike Cochran? Who’s Mike Cochran? He was with the Associated Press.

Uh no, I did not talk to Mike Cochran.

I talked to a guy by the name of David Folson from there, but he never come here to visit me.

We only wrote through letters.

Okay.

Oh, okay.

Um, why do you suppose the news media doesn’t take an interest in your story? Nobody wants to admit it.

Everybody thinks I’m a nut job.

But like I say, I’ve had enough things that I’ve said.

It’s been clarified, been verified.

There’s documents, but nobody really wants to solve the Kennedy case.

The American people, I don’t really think they care.

The news media, they need something that they can go every year.

You get a lot of people that make a lot of money writing books.

I don’t know how many how many books has been wrote about it.

couple thousand.

Yeah.

Why put all them people out of work? If if you consider that you’re talking to the American public, what would you tell them about the Kennedy assassination at the time? I believe the Kennedy assassination was a necessity.

The reason it was carried out, the reason it was ordered in my own belief is the money people, the power people, they wanted to stay in Southeast Asia.

It’s not about who did who to what over here.

It was about the money that was to be made.

John F.

Kennedy wanted to bring all the boys home from Southeast Asia that were over there.

Certain people wanted to keep those guys over there.

We needed it because there’s going to be deep sea ports built.

There’s going to be the biggest runways in the world built for bombers in different places in Guam, Okinawa.

Southeast Asia is going to be flooded with air bases.

We’re not talking millions and we’re talking maybe trillion dollars or more.

You’ve got your chemical companies just going to come in.

This is the greatest ground the river was for chemical warfare testing.

And to have a war, you need deep sea ports.

You need runways, airplanes, manufacturers, tanks, weaponry, ammunition, munitions to be made, bombs to be made.

We’re talking, we’re talking an alltime economic deal here.

Big money.

The sad to say, the rich get rich, the poor get poor.

The poor die, the rich got richer.

I’ll tell you where my knowledge is, and you can check this out with the FBI.

They had me for the bombing in Chicago over there on the north side.

Rostston Motors.

This place like covered a whole block when this building come down and I went to trial on in 1983 right there in Chicago.

They helped me for 13 months in the MCC Correctional Center there.

I didn’t put a brick across the sidewalk.

I put everything inside the building.

That’s how good it was.

They knew I’d done it.

Everybody else knew I’d done it.

Everything’s just Yeah.

Right there.

I was already doing 20 years for the chop shop operation and they wanted me to plead guilty.

They’d give me another 20 and running concurrent.

They told me my words was put me on trial.

I went to trial.

Jimmy Gio, my partner, he wound up pleading guilty first.

He was going to beef against me.

There’s another party, Luke Cavalero, better known as Blind Louie.

When we was young and he we grew up together, his name was Bad Boy Louie.

And when I say bad, he was bad.

But as we got older and went into crime life, everything else, we separated for a long time, then we got back together.

But they called him Blind Louie.

Blind Louie.

We’ moved him out to Arizona from the Chicago area.

He lived there in Elmerst.

Matter of fact, they did a thing on him on ABC one night about they were interviewing him and talking to him about him living and this and that and must be hard being land.

He told him, he said, “It’s very hard for me to get by.

” He says, “But I have to struggle.

” He don’t know.

They got cameras out back showing his swimming pool in the backyard.

All the Cadillacs in the driveway.

He’s got a beautiful home, a three $400,000 home and he’s struggling.

And he’s struggling.

Yeah.

We moved him out there anyway.

But while we’re out there and I’m on trial, he got a call from Louisie.

Louis Hook, they got him hooked up to talk to Louis and the MCC at Chicago there where he was being held out on bond and they told him, “If you testify against Jimmy, you don’t have to worry about going to prison.

” He said, “You don’t never testify against him.

” And so Jimmy Gardio refused to testify against me.

I was acquitted to the case.

Okay.

You ever heard of Operation Mongoose? Oh, yeah.

Who hasn’t? That was that was the nexus, wasn’t it? Yeah.

That’s where it all came together.

Yeah.

They had a whole bunch of them there.

Yeah.

They had a whole bunch of different programs.

I can’t remember the names of all them, but they had several of them.

Did you ever meet Lance there? Lance Delton? No.

That picture of you uh with with with the guy that did Tippet, where was that taken? New Orleans.

New Orleans.

Yeah, New Orleans.

Uh in 1961.

No, that was in 19 and uh 62.

Late 62.

Were you 21 that time? No.

No.

Uhuh.

20.

Oh, 62.

You were 62.

Yeah.

How old are you now? Oh, right.

I was born at 42.

How? And I’m 61.

Fixed to go 62.

In January, right? Yeah.

January.

You’re just a year old.

Yeah.

Um Oh, yeah.

About that.

Uh you you said the American people, I think they don’t really care about or telling the truth about the JF assassination.

That’s like what Bob I think they do, but their government is covering it up.

And I think people I think people are tired of hearing about it.

I really do.

That’s why I tried to convince Bob to go with something else.

I told Bob, I said, “Man, you want to let’s do a couple of stories out of South America.

” I said, “Man, I got some good stuff down there.

” But Bob, they’re not Didn’t want no part of it.

Hearing about it.

Uhhuh.

They are not tired of hearing about it.

I mean, that’s my own belief now.

And all these TV shows are all Yeah.

Yeah.

It’s all the same old I watched another two hours last night on the American Experience.

Monday night, I watched three hours and I watched two more hours of it last night.

And like what I had told Pamela before a long time ago about JFK when he met with crew chap and I we talked about it yesterday like they even had it on TV how crew chief talked down to him and he walked out of the meeting.

They showed the actual footage of him coming out of the meeting and getting in the car.

They had to help him in the car.

He was stunned.

And like I told him, he wasn’t as big a war hero as everybody said.

They finally admitted it on TV.

They said Monday night that JF Kennedy was not the big was not the big war hero that everybody made him out to be.

Well, hell, he lost his ship.

Yeah, I know.

Ship.

Hell.

PD boat.

PT boat.

Jimmy, tell them about the Bay of Pigs or the Cuban missile missile crisis.

Not really necessary that blockade.

Everybody was so concerned about going to nuclear war.

All right.

You know Edin P.

Wilson, right? You heard of him? Yeah.

Okay.

He was with O and I back then, Office of Naval Intelligence.

All right.

He was pretty tight at that time with Frank Sturgis.

But he knew about it.

The naval intelligence people knew about this when uh Kennedy went and made crew chap.

Okay.

He made an agreement.

Nobody in the this whole country never knew it.

And they didn’t want the country to know about it.

He made an agreement to take our missiles out of Turkey that time.

Crew chap take his missiles out of Cuba.

Okay.

They agreed to do this.

They put the blockade up the whole face.

He paddicked the whole country into thinking we’re going to nuclear war.

As far as I’m concerned, was made before.

Yeah.

The agreement was made before the blockade.

Okay.

Once the blockade was up and the ship’s in route, it’s too late to do anything cuz they had the one ship, I guess, coming with more missiles and it pull up to the blockade and then they backed off.

They turned around and they went away.

So that was just to save face to get missiles out of it.

There was another first just like the Maddox.

Just a deal.

Remember the Maddox? Oh yeah.

Okay.

Another one of those deals there.

Phony deal.

Another phony deal.

How How do you know this is true? What you’re telling us? Well, what I heard was like Wilson heard it.

I don’t know if I was told that uh Wilson he heard it.

He got it through the office of naval intelligence and he had talked with Frank Sturgis about it and I was Frank when day was talking Frank a nuclear war.

What do you mean? How do you know? You know I’m concerned at this point too.

Yeah.

Then Frank told me and I says you’re me and he said no I’m serious.

I’m telling you how it is.

Ain’t going to be mean nuclear war.

Relax.

Forget about it.

Cuz they already knew the phone.

I told my mother don’t worry about it.

M.

What do you know? You’re a kid.

What do you know? She heard me swear on the street or something and a woman is around.

She run out of the house with a broom.

Chasing me up down the street, beat me with a broom up and down 22nd Avenue.

There goes my legacy.

Oh man.

Well, are they going to come when it’s time? How does this work? Whenever you’re ready to go, we can go out there and tell them.

They’ll take you.

Shoot.

Unless if if you’re getting are you getting tired? Not me.

Well, I was going to say drink, but I’ve noticed you’re not drinking yet.

I’ve wanted to meet you for a long time.

Okay, I’m serious.

I wanted to meet you for a long time.

When Pamela told me that when we got you and you was going to do the interview, I was totally excited about it.

I got two things in my mind.

I said, I got to ask you two things about killing this.

I got to ask you about Gordon Grey Majestic 12.

That’s it.

I think Well, I think you’ll find that when I send you this alien agenda book and and let me tell you something.

I just got through writing an endorsement for a book that’s not yet published.

by some doctorate guy, really smart guy and it’s a real well-ritten academic book.

But here’s what he says and you know it’s true.

You cannot understand any of the world politics or the world events or the policies that’s going on today unless you understand about the UFOs and the ET presence here.

And most people go and they set it aside and then they wonder why is this going on? Why is this like this? Why is this like this? Well, they don’t have a big part of the equation.

Yeah.

So, when you get in an agenda, that’ll kind of fill in some holes.

Did you ever read the golf sightings? Oh, yeah.

I read that one.

I read that fascin private airfield there right by the CIA.

Right next to Eglund Air Force Base.

Well, I have been to Lantana.

Mhm.

Where they had the little prison down there.

Yeah.

And they got the little strip.

Mhm.

It’s kind of closed up now, but Oh, that’s right.

Do Do you recognize the name uh Pearson? Oh, yeah.

Pilot.

Mhm.

You know, it’s real.

David David Pearson.

Yeah, it’s TSH.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tosh and I went down there.

Mhm.

And I got hold of uh I actually got hold of one of the old guards there and he told me he said, “Yeah, it was kind of odd.

” He says, “We had all the county prisoners over here.

” And said, “We had a contract with the federal government to put federal prisoners over here.

” He said, “But they’d come and go.

” Yeah.

Yeah.

But we had a lot of we had a lot of uh sneaky aircraft flying out of Hoverfield there.

Only flew out at night time.

Yeah.

That was another one of those covert bases.

Mhm.

Very very covert.

I got to tell you a funny story down there.

And this that machine ain’t running.