🧠 Inside the Alleged “Rob & Michelle Reiner Murders”: Psychologists Tear Apart the Hypothetical Crime Narrative, Dissecting Motive, Manipulation, and Family Dynamics in a Dark Thought Experiment Hollywood Can’t Stop Whispering About — In a razor-voiced tabloid cadence, experts are said to analyze patterns, power, and pressure as if this were a case study pulled from a nightmare, stressing this is an alleged scenario used to probe how fame warps intimacy, how silence trains behavior, and why the most convincing stories aren’t facts but frameworks that feel terrifyingly plausible 

Multiple outlets, including the Los Angeles Times and local media within LA, now reporting that Rick Nick, excuse me, Riner had been prescribed medication commonly used to treat schizophrenia before his parents were killed.

TMZ going a step further, reporting a schizophrenia diagnosis, but that claim has not been independently corroborated.

Tonight, we are not litigating guilt.

We are asking a harder question.

What happens when severe mental illness, addiction, and family fear all collide into what appears to be a perfect storm and the system appears to have failed everyone involved.

Welcome to the global phenomenon, Surviving the Survivor.

Here’s your host, Emmy award-winning journalist Joel Waldman.

What’s up, STS nation? Welcome to Surviving the Survivor.

This is the global phenomenon that brings you the very best guests in all of true crime.

We are continuing our indepth coverage of the murders of Rob and Michelle Singer Reiner.

allegedly uh the murders uh occurring at the hands of their son Nick Reiner who now faces serious criminal charges and already uh being put out into the uh ethosphere, the notion that he is schizophrenic.

We’re going to talk a lot about that tonight.

Uh we are looking at the mental health dimension of this case, but of course also keeping an eye on the legal aspect as well.

And here to help us break it all down from Los Angeles, the city of angels, Dr.

Iliko Tabori, a licensed psychologist out of the great city of Los Angeles.

Um, next up, Rachel Fizz, criminal defense attorney out of the LA area.

And last, but certainly not least, and not out of the LA area, but rather out of the Greenville, South Carolina area by way of Oklahoma, Dr.

Roger Rhodess, a family therapist in Greenville.

There he is.

And it’s hard for me to say Boomer Sooner.

Boomer Sooner, man.

Yeah, man.

H how does it feel to be the only guest who is not from LA? Raj.

Uh, hey, I’ve been to LA, so does that count? You know, I’ve only been to LA one or two times.

It counts in my book.

Your accent fits in perfectly in LA and uh counts for me.

Buddy.

Yeah.

All I got to do is open my mouth and buddy, I’ll get stairs everywhere there.

They know you’re not from them parts.

But uh No, buddy.

We’re going to dig in.

Get her done.

You know how to get her done.

Uh we’re going to look at the uh the mental health aspect.

Obviously, with uh Rachel on the panel being a criminal defense attorney out of the LA area, we’re also going to cover uh the legal aspect.

But Dr.

Tibbori, before we even get into the specifics, I mean, you you live, breathe, and uh work in Los Angeles.

I mean, this is the biggest case arguably uh since OJ Simpson out there.

When you first heard about this, initially, it came in as a report of just two dead people who seem to match the age of uh Rob and Michelle Reiner, but it was very unclear how they died, what happened.

as the picture got more and more into focus and you learned that this comedic icon uh was murdered and apparently at the hands of his son Nick along with his pretty iconic wife Michelle Singer Reiner.

Uh and now you’ve had some time to digest it.

Um has your jaw lifted up off the ground or are you still even as a psychologist who’s heard it all, are you still in a bit of shock as to how insane this story is on so many levels? Uh I’m my jaw is definitely closed now, but my heart just hurts for this whole family.

It it’s just it’s so scary and the manner in which they were killed is so personal and so violent and it everything just hurts around this.

And I’ve been a huge Robiner fan for ever since when Harry Met Sally came out.

I that was one of my top two all-time favorite movies and it just it hurts.

It really hurts.

Yeah, it does.

Um, it’s absolutely brutal.

Uh, Rachel Fis, you know, the minute almost the moment that Allan Jackson was done at that sort of impromptu press conference after what was supposed to be the arraignment, but we all know uh, Nick Reiner’s arraignment has now been continued to January 7th.

And we’ll bring that to you live when it happens.

But uh literally right after that Allan Jackson started to talk sort of you know you had to read between the lines but basically indicating that there was layer upon layer of things that you had to kind of sift through to understand uh the Nick Riner story suggesting that mental health would be a component.

And sure enough, um, late in the week last week, today is Monday, but late in the week last week, we get reports that at least Nick Reiner was prescribed medication for schizophrenia.

We don’t know if the diagno, you would presume that the diagnosis was schizophrenia, but um, what part of that um, is Allan Jackson maybe disseminating some information if he is? Um, and what part of that is coming from a place, you know, where uh there’s a real mental health concern, I guess, for Nick Riner and the possibility that maybe he was diagnosed as schizophrenic prior to all this.

And I think it’s too early to tell what’s actually going on at this point.

Um, I was a little suspicious when that initially came out.

I think we need to see there will be experts obviously relating to this topic what he was actually diagnosed with prior it it I would guess that’s a stretch uh but we don’t know yet um but he’s got to come out of the box strong and schizophrenia is a strong statement as it would relate to the insanity defense so a schizophrenic would not know right from wrong inside of a skit possibly inside of a schizophrenic type of episode.

Um, it would not be related to drug use, which does not allow for the insanity defense.

So, this is pretty apparent where they’re headed.

And even if he wasn’t diagnosed but was prescribed, I it’s not that they can’t claim that he is schizophrenic, that they can’t have an expert um opine on what was going on at the time of the murder, if indeed that’s where they’re headed.

Um but I do think this is certainly a message.

It’s sending strong signals that a a plea by reason of insanity is headed our way.

Yeah.

And we’ll talk about um you know uh a not guilty by reason of insanity um you know argument if there’s one to be made here.

We’ll get to that in a few minutes.

Uh smash that like button button.

Hope you guys did too.

Um there’s an interesting comment right out of the gates here.

Uh Raj and I don’t want to beat someone up especially if they are potentially schizophrenic if they’re drug addicted as it appears Nick is and was.

Uh, Nick was an entitled brat from Purple Daisy in my opinion.

I heard that the staff was told by his family to give him whatever he wanted so he didn’t get upset.

And there’s a podcast clip that is circulating today where Nick is talking about how he basically played a rehab acting crazy.

This is his own words and I’ll play it in a little bit where he was basically playing a rehab facility by act quote unquote acting crazy to get drugs that he wanted.

So I guess the bigger word here is manipulation.

Raj, um, how do you know if someone with a history of I guess being manipulative is being manipulative or if something is seriously wrong with them from a mental health standpoint? Raj, well many times Joel, you don’t know it all.

They don’t know.

Uh but what they’re trying to do, one of the things you got to see here is where they’ve moved really from mental health to a medical issue.

When you hear doctors say schizophrenic re really they’ve moved it from something that’s a mental I issue dealing with other people dealing in situations dealing in life to the place of their brain is is out of whack.

And what schizophrenia says it the doctors are saying brain’s out of whack and we’re trying to figure out the right medication to get it to start firing correctly.

So that that that’s a big jump when you move to well he was kind of depressed or he was kind of agitated to he he’s schizophrenic and who and I would say also if he’s going to a rehab facility and he’s not well are we then going to say something’s wrong with him because he’s not well or they didn’t figure out exactly how unwell he was? Uh, no.

They’re they’re just trying to help the situation.

Kind of not cure the self situation, but help the situation so it’s manageable is what the that’s the rehab angle that they’re going with.

Uh there you see the family along another person that you might recognize on the far left, a guy named Paul McCartney.

Uh, and it just goes to show you, I mean, Nick Reiner grew up in a life of privilege.

We got a lot of photos here tonight, uh, that will show you him, uh, you know, at other venues where he’s sitting in the front row and, uh, he had a front row seat to life, but, uh, looks like all this was basically, uh, squandered, um, when he allegedly took his parents’ lives.

But Dr.

do Tori from Dink 60, 1963.

Schizoph, this has come up a lot.

Two things here.

Schizophrenia is usually diagnosed earlier than age 32, late teens, early 20s.

Number one, is that an accurate statement? Can it creep in in your early 30s? And secondly, you know, people know schizophrenia is hearing voices, but what is schizophrenia really, Eldo? Um so chronic mental health conditions like schizophrenia, like bipolar disorder are typically diagnosed, they start manifesting in your late teens, early to mid20s.

So that’s generally when we see that initial diagnosis.

Can people be diagnosed later? Sure.

Absolutely.

I mean, is it probable? Not not probable, but possible because anything is possible.

Um, but I think especially with somebody who has a co-occurring substance use disorder, you have to distinguish it from what uh a diagnosis of something like um a substance induced psychotic disorder or substance induced bipolar disorder that is creating from created as a result of the um of whatever drugs the person was using.

With schizophrenia, it’s not just hallucinations.

And and when I say a hallucination, it’s an auditory hallucination, not a visual hallucination.

If you’re visually hallucinating, it is usually substance induced or a result of some sort of neurological condition.

Um, but it’s not just the hallucinations.

You have to have at least two of either hallucinations, delusions, um disorganized speech, um or like a disorganized um or catatonic behavior.

Um and then you have what we call negative emotions like this inability or a diminished ability to express um uh emotion essentially.

Wow.

Uh look at this comment and again this is why among the many reasons I think this story resonates so widely because a lot of people uh in their own families are dealing with mental health andor drug addiction but from Taylor Day and thank you for sharing this because I know it’s not easy and Raj I’ll throw this to you.

My daughter was released after her eight days in the acute hospital.

She’s schizophrenic and bipolar.

I will hide the knives and hammers tonight.

Her behavior is very erratic and combative.

Um, this sounds like a next to impossible situation.

Yeah, you I want you to read read that.

Okay, you don’t have to read it to me, but read because that’s an off tale.

I would say what you’re reading there about her daughter could be said thousands of times over thousands of people all over the country that are at that level of disturbance and how this woman who who’s written this has is u trying to cope like the rhiners were you know it is I mean Raj where do you where do you start I mean they started with rehab somewhere between 17 and 19 times.

That’s a lot.

But I mean, what what can you what could they have done differently? A lot of people say that they um you know you know that they basically caved into his needs, but what do you do? Yeah.

I I think that how they handled it we would consider as normal parenting that here I have a very disturbed child.

I’m very much in love with that child.

I am doing everything I can to cure that child and I’m going to quote unquote the professionals that work with curing it and they’re not doing it and it’s it’s tough.

It’s very tough for them to all all over the world people are working with that and sometimes it works and sometimes they get better and many times they do not.

A and I’m going to get back to Rachel, I promise.

But just um number one, the comment here from uh Beautiful Waterfall.

Why is everyone assuming he got diagnosed recently just because the family didn’t talk about it? That’s fairly typical.

They did allude to mental health issues in 2016 interviews.

That’s a good point.

Maybe that is the case.

But if we look at uh and feel free to address that, Dr.

Tori, but if you see him here, you know, he looks okay.

And then you see him here, much different physical appearance.

Um, does the physical appearance and and then, you know, this is the photo that people have seen more recently.

Um, if a schizophrenic diagnosis comes to fruition and as time passes, can you expect the physical look of a person to change along with the diagnosis? In other words, they are now firmly entrenched in a schizophrenic stage and they look differently too.

Is that is that usually true? Well, it it’s not because of the mental illness per se.

it’s because a lot of the medications like antisycchotic medications can put weight on you.

Um so that that’s one of the biggest indicators but also um so I I want to say two things.

One a diagnosis of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or a chronic mental health condition needs to be diagnosed independent of substance use.

So meaning you can’t actively diagnose somebody with schizophrenia if they’re also like smoking crack or using fentinol or any other drugs or alcohol.

They have to have a period of time to have an accurate diagnosis.

Well, and part of that too is uh the issue of self-medication.

Okay.

If if if I’m around people who are telling me I have this problem, I have this problem, I’m not doing well, then it’s very easy for me to try to play junior doctor with with street uh drugs to to try to get to normal.

And that that’s a that’s a very regular thing that that that group does is is that they they become self-medicators.

Well, Raj, let me ask you a question.

Oh, go ahead, Dr.

Toro.

Go ahead.

Oh, I was just gonna say, and you also don’t know what what’s in the drugs on the streets.

I mean, they’re they’re throwing fentinel in with everything here in LA.

Um, so I mean people you can buy Narcan at the pharmacy now and that that’s a nasal spray that can prevent an opioid overdose, right? So, and then also you know when you are using certain drugs it can again put weight on you or take weight off and fetamines obviously is going to decrease your al appetite and then with things like alcohol that’s going to put weight on you.

We saw this with Matthew Perry.

Yeah.

Um Raj and I’m getting back to Rachel but Dr.

I if if you know we all heard about this party that they were at with Conan O’Brien where things seem to have gone sideways and he got into some outburst with the comedian Bill her but just hypothetically if Rob and Michelle Riner came to you Dr.

Raj uh you know the couple days before the Conan o O’Brien party and said hey Raj you know you’re a friend you’re a therapist this is becoming impossible we’re worried about our son we’re petrified that’s the word that Rob Riner used we don’t know what we don’t know what to do anymore what would you we need your advice what would you have said to that the first thing I would ask him a question of what are you willing to do to stay safe for for him to be safe and for you to be safe.

That would be the first thing out of my mouth because if they were not willing to go to the mat and do what needed to be done for them to be safe, then you know, anything could happen, you know, and I doubt that the the party they were at at Conan’s was unusual that that this was an unusual interaction.

My thing I would think that it was one of many times he had acted this way and I think that they were on a course of trying to love him into health and that is a very normal response for parents who have children who have schizophrenia and drug issues.

They try to love them into health and it just doesn’t work.

Uh Dr.

Martina, thank you for the super chat.

So besides loving them into health, um, thank you Dr.

Martine.

I appreciate that.

Besides loving them into health, what do you have to do? I mean, do you have to is it have to be tough love? Do you have to say you need to go away or you need to I mean, at one point he was homeless.

We still don’t know if that was of his own vition if if Robiner say get lost.

We don’t know what the circumstances are, but I mean does tough love have to come into play? Like do you have to look out? Did Robin and Michelle need to look out for themselves before they looked out for their son? I think the answer is probably yes.

Well, the bottom line, Joel, is one word, and the one word is safety.

Okay? That whatever you’re doing to help people in this situation, can you create an environment for them and you where everybody’s safe? And are you willing to be as tough as you need to be for that to happen? H this is heavy stuff.

It’s a Monday.

It’s the holidays.

Uh we got I think the last night of Hanukkah.

Maybe it was Is it tonight the last night? I think I’m getting hit up for one more night.

Yeah.

One getting hit up for more presents.

And um got Christmas this week, New Year’s.

We’ve got it all.

So, and by the way, it’s a very hard time of year.

You know what? At the end of the show, I’m going to ask Dr.

Tabbori and Dr.

Raj for some advice because it’s a rough time of year for people.

But Rachel Fizz, the criminal defense attorney, the smart one, one who defends criminals, makes a lot of money, and doesn’t have to deal with the psychology of people.

Um, that is not true.

Oh, yeah.

There is lots of psychology involved.

Yeah.

Well, Rachel, let me That’s true.

I’m sure that is very true.

He’s an honorary psychologist.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

There we go.

Exactly.

You know what? a lawyer with a a side bar of psy psychology.

I have my undergrad in psychology and I went, you know, debated between law school and psych um going further in psychology and I feel like I get a healthy dose of both.

Tomorrow, just so you know, I’m interviewing a guy named Scott Payne.

P A Y N.

If you don’t know him, Google him.

Um he was a deep undercover for the FBI that infil in infiltrated both biker gangs and the area nation and I was just listening to an old interview with him and he said before he’s anything else in his career as an undercover for the FBI he was a psych you know he was really the job was to be a psychologist.

He had to assess people speak to them learn all the you know the behaviors of a person.

Um, so I guess you need psychology in every aspect of life.

But, uh, Rachel, how does the court um, really separate the issue of substance abuse from mental illness when specifically when evaluating criminal responsibility? In other words, if it turns out that he is diagnosed as schizophrenic and he did this, is it different than just being a drug addict in the eyes of the court? Well, it’s going to be uh a competing expert.

It’s going to be a world of competing experts and how the jury weighs the evidence presented.

Um that’s really what would go on at a trial with an insanity defense.

Um and the defense side is going to make it as separate as it possibly can be.

uh including probably wrapping up the fact that he would never have done the drugs without the schizophrenia um and a mental illness that has come to a point where he would not be able to tell right from wrong at the point that the murders happened.

Even if there is some claim that he was also under the influence at that time where the prosecutors will do the opposite and they will be attempting to say that drug addiction is not the type of mental illness that an insanity defense can be based upon and that it was that guiding.

you know, perhaps it was that uh addiction or the substance was guiding his behavior in these murders.

Um, I mean, that’s all to be a muddled mess of expert testimony, but with the defense side’s goal of confusing the jury enough such that they find that he did not know right from wrong and it’s because of his mental illness, not because of some sort of substance abuse.

Um, I would wonder if you could if they couldn’t tie the mental illness with the the mental illness medication with drug use.

That that connection, but it’s it and I actually have the NGI case law up in front of me, but it’s still that he was still voluntarily using substances.

So that would wipe out like an NGI defense, a not guilty by reason of insanity.

So yeah, we’re we’re going to I want to get to that until a little bit more depth in just a minute, but um this is interesting.

Someone did the uh the math here.

Uh Jersey dogs, 70,000 per month for rehab, 17 times in rehab, roughly 1.

19 million assumes each rehab is a month.

There’s a lot to assume there, but also uh you’re talking about a family, Rob Reiner, with a net worth of $200 million.

But Dr.

Tibbor, it brings up a bigger issue, which is not everyone uh is created equal.

Not everyone comes into the world with the same amount of money.

Not everyone leaves with the same amount of money.

I mean, the Riners have an inordinate talking $200 million, but for a typical family, a lot of people don’t have, you know, $500 in case of an emergency.

Uh if you’re not the Rhiners and you’re an average family, this might not even I mean this is definitely not in the uh in the calculus.

What do you do if you don’t have the money for any rehabs? You just pray.

What do you do? Oh, no.

There there’s rehabs that’ll that are there that are there for insurance per that you can go to with your insurance or even with medical or Medicaid.

Um so they’re they’re there.

Not all rehab you I mean you have your fancy rehab that has like ecoin therapy and massage and you know yoga retreats and and things like that and then you have what most people can deal with which are just regular rehabs where you’re going to meetings multiple times a day and you have to earn passes to leave as a um and you’re sharing rooms with people as opposed to your own private condo in you know the grand estate.

So, it is available.

But the bottom line here is no amount of money is going to change an addict unless the addict wants to change.

Period.

Um, that is a great point.

Uh, Raj, do you agree with that? I mean, you can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make a drink.

Correct.

And whoever’s I would love to see rehab for one month with something this serious that I’m like, you got to be kidding me.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I’m thinking 90 days each rehab at least.

But but the other side is there there you can see a pattern of trying to cure.

That’s that’s what you’re seeing here is the RERS had the money to get to the top the top level of treatment and going over that many times screams we’re trying to cure this boy and he’s saying I’m not curable.

Yeah.

That’s that’s like you see I love the doctor talking about rehab.

I mean uh drug use.

Yeah, man.

You know, the the statistic says that in in drug and alcohol rehab, the addict has to go through seven or more rehabs to get to a point of getting it.

So, if that’s a regular addict, then he’s not that far off the mark.

That’s interesting.

Uh Rachel, we’re going to talk about uh not guilty by reason of insanity.

Um but first, my Reena uh New York Reena MD.

I work in SoCal in addiction.

It’s the best place in the world in terms of funding.

I don’t know if you mean from because of wealthy celebrities um or funding from the government or funding from uh you know another source, but that’s that’s interesting as well.

Um Rachel, if Allan Jackson decides to go down this path, this NGI path, which is not guilty by reason of insanity, what does he have to have uh from his client and he as a criminal defense attorney in order to move forward with uh that kind of defense? Well, I think we saw a little peak into what might be happening initially, and that was when he wasn’t medically cleared to show up for the first arraignment.

So, I think we might have a few layers, and I I don’t know yet, but first, his client has to be competent to stand trial, and that is an assessment as well.

And I feel like we’re going to get to the point of determining whether Nick Reiner is competent to stand trial and aid in his own defense.

that is a necessity that the trial court I think they will want to clear that hurdle to ensure that he is initially competent which is it’s not like the highest bar but it it is he does need to be able to meet the standard of coming to trial and and hearing the charges against him and aiding in his own defense.

So, I think that’s the first step we’re going to see.

And I think we’re going to live in that zone a little while.

I think the competency zone is someplace we’re going to live before we even get to the insanity zone.

Now, Rachel, let me ask you a question as a cynic.

And I don’t this is not a shot at Allen Jackson.

Trust me.

But I’m just asking this.

I would ask this of any criminal defense attorney, but what if um this is a big if.

What if Nick Riner is totally fine to go to court, but um Allan Jackson is saying, you know, isn’t necessarily um isn’t necessarily um enthusiastic about it, I guess, is is is a way I’m going to word it.

Let’s say Allan Jackson’s like, “H, you might want to think twice about running to court too quickly.

” What What if in his mind this is Allen Jackson? what if he sees it as the only way to victory and maybe he doesn’t want his client coming to court uh so willingly.

What what happens in that kind of situation? Well, we never know.

So that’s all attorney client privilege information and we never know their strategy and uh you so long as Alan Jackson is acting in good faith in putting forth various strategies or holding him back from trial even when he wants to go.

Yeah.

Um and I’m assuming I’m assuming if Nick Riner’s like no I want to go to court.

I want to face my charges.

Allan Jackson has nothing he can say about that.

He says, “Okay, let’s go to court.

” No, absolutely.

There are things he can say about it.

He can say he can say, “You’re not competent to go to court and let’s have you evaluated.

” Certainly, the lawyer should There are plenty of incompetent people that want to go to court and defend themselves.

You they want to be their own lawyers and they want to talk as much as possible.

Um, so the these are thoughtful decisions that need to be made strategically and in good faith with true belief that there is a chance that he may not be able to stand trial or may not be competent.

So I think they’re going to take each of these steps pretty slowly given what we even know about the mental state of Nick Reiner.

Do you think it’s fair to say that Allan Jackson above all wants to win? Whatever that means in this case, uh Rachel, that he wants to win, whether it’s getting his client off on uh you know, some sort of not NGI, not guilty by reason of insanity, whatever it is, is that his end goal is to win.

I mean, that this again, you’re being a little rough on defense attorneys right now.

Um, I said I said I would do it about anyone, but yeah, a little bit.

A little bit.

Lawyers want the best path forward for their client.

They want justice to be served and, you know, they probably want to win.

So, what winning looks like in this case, I think, is yet to be determined.

I think a pretty giant win would be for Nick Reiner to um live the rest of his life in a like in a mental institute that also is for um criminals.

And I think getting some sort of treatment inside of an institute um in that type of setting inside of a in a hospital would be a giant win in this case.

Okay, so uh we’ve got Kohha SF here.

Nick made it clear in those Dopey podcasts that he had no desire to change.

He just wanted to use drugs and be a bum on his dad’s dime.

And guess what? We happen to have a clip from the Dopey podcast.

I don’t know much about the Dopey podcast, but uh it is some kind of drug related podcast aka Dopey.

This is Nick Reiner now uh who we haven’t heard, at least I haven’t heard until now.

Uh, shout out to Tiff Ritter gifting us a membership.

Um, the better half of Josh Ritter Courtroom Confidential.

But this is Nick Reiner on the Dopey podcast.

Let’s listen and we’ll get some uh reaction from all three of the guests.

The way I got Well, is actually really funny.

I was at Alena Lodge and they I don’t know if I told this last week, but they refused to give me meds.

So to prove I was crazy because they were like, “You don’t need any meds.

” And I was like, freaking out and and I was like, “You don’t think I need meds?” And they’re like, “Yeah, we think you’re just all up to an act here and this is all just fake.

” And I said, “Okay.

” And then I went back to, you know, uh the roost.

Remember the roost? No.

That’s what they called the little barracks.

And I I was like, “How do I show these mother and I’m crazy?” Yeah.

So, I was like, I’m going to hold it right there.

Raj, um, without further ado, how do I show these people I’m crazy? I’m going to ask Rachel about this.

This is not a very good piece of uh evidence if this ever goes to trial for Allan Jackson.

This is what they call a bad fact.

This is a guy openly saying, “How do I show someone I’m crazy by doing X, Y, and Z?” What do you make of his whole like demeanor and disposition and just hearing him talk here? It it one of the things I’ve seen about this is what I’ve seen from uh people who have been in multiple treatment centers.

they become therapeutically savvy.

They know what to say, how to say it, what to act, how to act it, uh to to get the results they’re looking for.

And he sounds that way.

I think that’s one of the things that he’s going to come with.

He he knows the difference between what works and what doesn’t work.

he just can’t hold on to the bar that it’s it’s just too elusive to him.

But him having the the therapy speak and the therapy action, I believe he could come up with that today and act however he believes is to his best benefit.

Yeah.

Uh someone says Shelley Malone says he sounds entitled, which to me does.

is I mean to be honest when I’m listening to this I feel like I’m sounding listening to a rich kid from Beverly Hills Brentwood whatever fill in the gap who might be the child of a celebrity which in fact this guy is at least listening to this um up to this point um Dr.

Dr.

Tori, to you though, to what degree, and you might have kind of alluded to this, so forgive me, but to to what degree does do drugs mask a possible real mental illness? In other words, this guy is just high all the time on different drugs.

Is that could that be masking schizophrenia uh lying below? It could be masking a whole lot of everything, right? It you know, and if you look at it this way, happy people aren’t abusing drugs.

They’re just not, you know, because it’s it’s it what these drugs are doing are self-medicating whatever is underneath whether it is a chronic mental health condition like like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or something like depression or anxiety or you know PTSD, it is it is masking whatever that underlying psychiatric problem is.

But what we see here with with you know this podcast and I’ve heard bits and pieces of this um is what I hear is I mean yes he’s entitled but you see that at um with people who are addicts on any level not not just wealthy but it’s that manipulation and it’s that arrested development that you see when somebody starts abusing drugs at like let’s say 15 or whenever he was when he was abusing.

um they kind of stay there, stay in that emotional space until they have until they get sober and then they stay sober and then they live this sober life and they they’re on this journey of healing and then they start from that that age and mature from that point forward.

But what we’re listening to is somebody with that arrested development, not simply because he’s a rich entitled kid.

It’s an entitlement as a result of the manipulation from the drug use.

Yeah, that is a wonderful separation there because I agree with you 100%.

I have seen client after client who came from poverty talk like this guy’s talking.

It’s that same entitlement.

I as well, you know, when I’m evaluating somebody who’s in custody at the jail, it’s that same level of entitlement.

Doesn’t they have no money and I hear the same conversation.

Yeah, that’s what Roger said is fascinating.

a guy coming from extreme poverty sounding exactly like Nick Riner.

But I I I’m going to take it back to the top here.

This is from the Dopey podcast courtesy of TMZ.

Uh we’ll get Rachel to also weigh in on what this does potentially to an NGI defense here.

But here we go.

Actually, really funny.

I was at Alena Lodge and they I don’t know if I told this last week, but they refused to give me meds.

So to prove I was crazy because they were like, “You don’t need any meds.

” And I was freaking out and and I was like, “You don’t think I need meds?” And they’re like, “Yeah, we think you’re just all up to an act here and this is all just fake.

” And I said, “Okay.

” And then I went back to, you know, uh, the roost.

Remember the roost? No, that’s what they called the little barracks.

And I I was like, “How do I show these mother?” And I’m crazy.

So I was like, I’ll throw a rock through the window.

So I started walk and they have this this this thing there that they love.

You know, that little church.

It’s not a church.

Really? They were bu they were building that when I was there.

It’s like a meeting room that that is like had these big glass windows and um they loved it and they always were like Mrs.

Delaney was here when they built this and and I just I hated that whole thing.

So I just I took a rock and I started on the path and I was going up this hill and my friend Peter’s like, “Where are you going, man?” And I was like, “Can’t talk right now.

I just got to do this.

” And I went and I threw the rock through the window and some woman saw me and she ratted on me and then they put me on Wellin.

There you go.

There you go.

Yeah.

I mean, go ahead, Dr.

Tori.

Go ahead.

Oh, I’m sorry.

It’s just interesting and I heard this earlier, too.

Um, and by the way, there’s a scene in Being Charlie where the the lead actor throws a rock into a window.

Um but um it’s interesting that he’s wanting Wellbutrin, which is an anti-depressant, but when chopped up, it can be a drug of abuse.

That one that’s interesting.

Um how do you when it’s chopped up, do you snort it? When you smash it, you can snort it and it’s going to give you a little bit of a high.

It’s more stimulating than like Prozac or Zoloft.

Yep.

Yeah.

Another thing that you see is that this whole group is just got their PhD in pharmarmacology.

I see I mean they they can they can look at they know exactly how much of whatever how many pills how it needs to be taken in what way.

Yeah.

This is not a hit and miss man.

They they have laser focus on chemistry right? how you take how you take uh prescribed medication or anything.

I mean, it’s just fascinating how you can get with with pharmacists and they don’t know as much about medication as a drug addict does.

Well, everyone, uh the party’s over because I got one of these Joel C texts.

Although there are no texts, even though I’m trying to see the text, but uh the COE wants us to be careful in uh giving people um uh insight into what to do with what.

So, let’s uh I and I agree with her.

So, uh let’s keep the trade secrets.

Trade secrets.

But, um but Rachel Fizz, to you, um when you hear this, this sounds like a cunning, manipulative human being who knew how to get what he wanted by acting in certain ways, even if it meant acting quote unquote crazy.

He said he’s going to throw a rock through the window.

Um, if I’m a if if and this is a huge if, again, if this goes to trial and he wants to plead uh not guilty by reason of insanity and I am Nathan Hawkman’s people, I’m going to play this clip.

I’m going to try to get this brought into evidence.

I’m going to say this guy’s playing all of you.

Uh, is that possible that this does happen, that this does get put into evidence if it goes? I mean, there’ll be a lot of uh objections to it going into evidence uh that it’s more prejuditial than probative.

doesn’t it doesn’t speak to any of the events that happened that night that they’re just trying to put forth bad character evidence should it get in.

Um it does show some knowledge.

That’s its biggest problem with it is that he knows what he’s doing and whether he’s manipulative.

Yeah, clearly.

But and people certainly aren’t going to like hearing this clip.

It doesn’t make anyone like him, right? Um, no one’s having a positive reaction towards this.

I I think um but the biggest issue is that he’s saying, “Hey, I knew what I was doing when I did this.

” Um, I think you could cleverly turn that around in some ways on the defense side, but overall, this is not a great piece of evidence if the jury to ever be to ever hear it.

And I give that about 50% that that this would get in.

Uh, Dr.

Dr.

Borie, I mean, is it Someone asked this question in the chat.

Is it possible to be manipulative like we’re hearing in this clip from the Dopey podcast and also at the same time have real schizophrenia and really be mentally ill and you’re kind of and both things are emerging.

Dr.

Doris, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And remember, we’re so what he’s saying whenever this podcast was, I think it was 2018.

And I might be off on my dates, but um you know that was a long time ago.

And even if it was, you know, a month ago, two months ago, the bottom line is what you’re looking at in terms of an NGI defense is what was happening at the time that the crime was committed, not the history of who he is as a human being.

He had to have had, you know, a a a significant mental disorder um independent of drug use.

and he couldn’t have been solely under drug use or a personality disorder or an adjustment disorder to ha at the time of the crime.

It has to be a a what they term I think in the case law is a mental defect.

Um and it was at the time of the crime very separate from you know his drug use and what was going on at any other time in his life.

Um Raj weigh in on this comment and I’m not condoning this comment but it’s interesting.

Nick hates the joy of others and wants to, excuse my language, piss all over them.

Typical narcissistic psychopath, miserable loser.

He was so jealous of the successful people at Conan’s party, including his own parents.

Is there something to that, Raj, that at 32 he was living in his quote unquote parents’ guest house? Um, and that he was just frustrated by the lack of achievement maybe on his part.

Is that a possibility? Let me tell you, Joel, if I had a nickel for everybody who would fit what that person puts down, I would be a millionaire.

That’s how prevalent that stuff is.

Now, you’re going What’s part of this is we’re going into the belly of addiction along with the belly of mental illness, medical mental illness.

I mean, blue buddy, this is just this is deep murky water.

And it’s easy to come up with an easy explanation, but usually they’re coming from people who are talking about dysfunctioning normal human beings.

And I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about with this case.

Yeah.

I I think we also need to be very careful about diagnosing people and leave that to the experts to diagnose, you know, because we we throw away terms like narcissists um a lot and psychopath without having a true understanding of what that is, you know, and we go to school for that for a really long time to figure that out.

And it’s a lot more nuanced than just throwing something out um that what we see on, you know, a picture or listen to on a podcast, right? I think that’s probably one of the things that disturbed me the most is the psychologically savvying of the American people that oh I I I heard this on a podcast.

I heard this on a TV show.

Oh, this is what they said and now I’m going to match it when you know what I do for a living is drive a bus.

Whoa, wait a minute.

you know, uh, you don’t have the the depth to understand all the layers that are involved in so many of these diagnosis.

Many, many layers.

And then, boy, when you’re talking about law, oh, buddy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, we’re really, now we’re going even deeper than just the psychological drug addiction stuff.

Not a lot of um I I don’t know.

Not a lot of warm feelings for Nick right here, who was an arrogant jerk primarily and a drug addict secondarily.

I’d be curious to see uh what his family I’m not no one is blaming victims here.

You got to understand that is just part of a conversation.

Um you know whether you look at Nick as a victim andor Rob or Michelle.

I don’t think anyone is victim blaming.

I just think people are stating their feelings which I think is fair in a situation like this about um the behavior that he exhibited but we will be careful and uh we will watch out for uh but to that point and Dr.

Dwo let me ask you this.

I was going to go to Rachel but let me go to you first.

Do you find that in most families where addiction has swept in and overtaken somebody and or a mental illness, I’m talking a serious mental illness like schizophrenia, um do the does does the family then live in fear of that person a lot of times? Well, look, we’re we’re confusing like something like schizophrenia with dangerousness.

And most people who have schizophrenia are not dangerous.

You know, those are two very separate things.

And I and and and I think we need to understand that.

And it’s it it’s it’s getting all convoluted right now in the media.

Um so yeah, please do do us a favor and separate that out.

I mean, if you are schizophrenic does not mean you are violent.

It does not mean that you are violent.

Um addicts in general not violent.

I mean, they they’re doing things that can be manipulative.

Um that yes, there is a high propensity for criminal behavior likely to fund their drug use, right? They’re they’re robbing, they’re stealing, um you know, they’re burglarizing, they’re doing things like that so they can pay for their drugs, right? But in general, those are two very, very separate things.

I’m not saying that somebody with schizophrenia isn’t violent because they can be, but it’s such a small percentage of that.

And and the issue here is is not, I believe, about violence.

The issue here is about safety, right? The issue of whatever’s going on are the people involved focus focused on the safety of everybody involved.

And that that was lost in this this situation.

And that includes emotional safety as well.

Yeah.

Which is which is a great point.

I just saw Annie Kay, longtime STSer uh in the in the chat, and I agree with her.

We don’t know enough yet about Nick and the situation or what’s going on uh with the family dynamic.

I mean, a lot of us are making comments, including yours truly, but uh we do have to learn more.

Be you know, it’s easy.

And look, I be I’m the first to admit it.

I’m gonna take shots at a kid growing up in Brentwood or Beverly Hills as being a spoiled brat.

But maybe you know there’s a lot more to learn and digest and um you know and I’m sure even despite what happened, I’m sure uh there is a part of Romy and Jake uh who love their brother and now it’s going to be um I mean Raj, what about that now that I mentioned it? Uh, how do you love a brother that murdered your parents? Uh, if in fact he is convicted of these crimes or pleads guilty to them, how do you ever reconcile that? Well, what he’s I believe he would do in that situation is he would say, “You you all know the real me.

” That would be the word, the real him.

Okay? And the real him never murdered.

I I said I did it because they did all this stuff and okay, it came out legally that I killed him, but that was this other person.

So, there would be a separation and he says, “You still know the real me.

This is the real me and I know you love the real me.

” And that’s how they would be able to love him.

Well, do you agree with that? Is that is that what he would lean on saying that that was a moment in time where I either snapped, I wasn’t myself, it was an outer body.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And I mean, let’s assume that there was um there is an insanity defense and then that is factually true that it wasn’t him at the time of the crime and that there was some sort of psychotic um or manic.

I mean, we don’t know if it’s bipolar disorder with psychotic features.

Who knows? We don’t know any of this.

But there could have been some sort of psychotic break where there was a delusion or a hallucination that was commanding him to to engage in this behavior, right? Um but also taking responsibility for that action too.

Um so I mean there there’s a this is so layered on so many levels.

Um and it it’s again I’m going to go back to what I said at the top here.

It’s just really sad and heartbreaking.

Yeah.

Um, look at this question.

Could only go to the criminal defense attorney from Never Give Up.

Uh, what are the chances? It wasn’t Nick.

Imagine that as a defense from Alan Jackson.

It wasn’t my client at all.

Although, I feel like AJ’s already put him in a box.

Um, almost cornered him as has the court of public opinion.

But is there a chance, Rachel, that you see a defense that it was I mean that house has got to be, speaking of layered, it’s be layered with surveillance video, and they’ve got to have everything that they need.

But imagine a defense where they say, “How do you know it was how do you know it was Nick Ryan?” So that to me was what I thought was somewhat um has been unfolding interestingly in that they likely look like they are headed towards an insanity defense that he wasn’t um deemed medically clear to come to his arraignment.

uh the suicide vest, all of these things.

I think we are not headed towards that defense that it it wasn’t him or that the defense team doesn’t think that defense is strong.

Um, of course, that’s always a defense that, you know, wasn’t me that that is the most common defense that you get in a criminal case um when you are at trial.

But I don’t think in this case that we are necessarily going there uh because of just the the breadcrumbs we’re getting out in the public.

And Raj uh thank you.

Um look at this comment.

Nick is also a victim of his illness.

Like Dr.

Dbor was just saying this is like unpeeling uh an onion.

I mean, you get yourself, I guess, or biologically you’re thrust into a drug addiction.

At what point are you in control? At what point are you out of control? Are do you agree that he’s a victim of this either drug addiction or uh schizophrenia, Raj? And then we’ll get Dr.

Okay.

Joel, first thing I need for you to answer is how many angels can dance on the end of a pen? A trillion.

Okay.

See that? That’s the question.

You don’t know.

I don’t know that there’s no way.

Is Is Nick a victim? Yes.

Does he move to a place where his victimhood allows him to kill people? I think they’re going to have a hard time jumping on that one.

U Yeah.

Yeah.

I’m going go on.

No.

Dr.

Dory, what I mean, what about that? When when are you a victim of your own mental illness, your own drug addiction? When do you need to take responsibility for it? Where do the two intersect? I mean, it’s interesting.

So, yeah, look, it’s not Let’s Let’s assume he has schizophrenia.

Just assume for the purpose of this conversation that he has schizophrenia.

He didn’t cause schizophrenia.

That is a biological disorder.

It is in the brain that and it’s usually uh there’s a biological predisposition for it.

He didn’t cause it.

That’s not his fault.

So, yes, 100% he is the victim of his mental illness.

If we look at drug use as a medical model uh or from from a a disease model um that wasn’t his choice either.

Addiction is a a difference in your brain functioning.

Um now that being said, it’s still your responsibility to take care of it.

Right? If you have schizophrenia, you take medication, you go to your you you go to your therapies, you go to your groups, you see your psychiatrist, and you’re consistent with your medication, and you follow along.

I mean, the medications are so good.

Side effects aren’t that bad.

Not like what we saw in the snake pit in the 1940s, right? Um it it doesn’t look like that anymore.

with addiction, you you do your therapies, you do your groups, you go to your 12step meetings, um all those things are important.

You take it one day at a time.

The that’s where it becomes your responsibility.

So yes, the answer is yes and and then some.

Wow.

Uh and you see this comment, unresolved anger, frustration, and mental illness plus drug use equals uh I’ll add the word unmitigated disaster.

Uh and there you go.

Um, so look, I mean this is like something my and Raj knows I talk about my dad who’s a psychiatrist a lot.

I mean this is obviously being said facitiously.

I’m addicted to chocolate.

Uh, so I have no control but you know my I know my dad would say ultimately uh you have to have you have to make a choice.

Um and I I understand sometimes maybe choices are not be able to made at least not cogently or incoherently uh if you are addicted but ultimately it is up to each person no matter how far down they’ve got to in the well they’ve got to dig to create that choice.

Um you know either in a court of public opinion or a court of law.

Um, people are going to want to know why you committed such a horrific act.

And I don’t know that you can just rely on saying they’re never going to find that out.

That’s that’s an answer they’re never going to get.

And I I see this as not a battle over his conditions, but a battle of attorneys.

This is going this is going to be an attorney case, not a mental drug addiction case.

Uh I love Dr.

RH Road’s accent from Oklahoma.

Who doesn’t? Um do you agree with that, Rachel Fizz? Being that you’re an attorney, is this going to be a battle of the lawyers versus a battle of the addiction experts? Well, the the two converge um as as we know.

So the experts that the lawyers find, how the experts are questioned, um the arguments made based on the expert testimony.

So really the experts are incredibly key to this case.

And both sides will find experts, I guarantee it, that say exactly what each side needs them to say.

Amen.

Amen.

You’re preaching the word now, girl.

Oh, that’s exactly how it’s going to play.

What you want them to hear and and the people who are the smartest will win? Um, Dr.

Tori, how about you from Beach Bum here? Uh, can you please explain the difference between addiction and drug dependency? Yes, I can because I do it a lot.

Um uh well I I’m well in terms of drug dependency I’m I’m going to use it as drug abuse versus um drug addiction.

So um drug abuse is I’m abusing methamphetamine um because I’m using it for whatever reason um to keep me up so I can work later so I can keep my weight down.

Um I’m abusing it like that.

Then there’s the addiction where I can’t stop using methamphetamine, right? There there’s something.

Wait, wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

What do you do if you can’t keep your cat off of the show? That’s an alien.

That’s not a cat.

That’s an alien.

What do you think? I mean, let me know that diagnosis.

She hears your voice and she’s she’s she’s she comes in.

She’s that.

You don’t get your cat’s part.

Okie.

That’s why she likes my voice.

She likes the attention.

Oh, there we go.

That’s an oi.

That’s an oie.

So, so, so back to that question.

It it Yes.

So, abuse is that you can stop.

Addiction is you can’t stop.

Uh, yeah.

And that’s I mean, that’s a really important I think delineation there.

I had Dr.

Raj, hear me out on this.

I I I I I expressed this thought to Carmela, my mom, who said, “I have no idea.

” But one of my theories, uh, being the son of a psychiatrist, is that he’s 32.

uh this is building up over a lifetime I think where he’s not only got a father that’s this iconic figure but a grandfather and you’ve got this very um powerful father in Hollywood you know producing these movies and maybe he couldn’t achieve any sort of fame and the only way to get this sort of um notoriety or infamy was to lash out and kill his parents on some subconscious level I don’t think that he necessarily intended and said this This is what I’m going to do.

But is there anything to that? No.

Love it.

Yeah.

And why not? And why not? That real easy.

No.

Yeah.

Why not? Why not? Yeah.

No.

No.

There’s a huge leap to move to taking another human’s life and then even a bigger leap in taking your parents’ lives.

Woo.

I mean, so Raj, what do you think happened here? What what is your bottom line? Do you think he was in some kind of drug induced psychosis? Do you think he’s schizophrenic? What do you think is going on? I I think that they there were signs of people, him and other people being at risk.

And they thought they could love him to being okay and they could not.

and it costs them their lives because they put trying to cure him above being safe.

That is what I think happened.

Yeah.

And Dr.

Tabori, I mean, I asked Rogers, I’ll ask you the same question.

If the Rhiners were good friends of yours and they came to you a couple of days before the Conan O’Brien party and said, um, and they used apparently Rob used the word petrified.

If he said, Dr.

Tabori, you know, I’m petrified of my son.

I love him.

I’ve I’ve sent him to rehab 18 times.

He’s been on the streets, you know, homeless.

I just don’t know what to do anymore.

I am scared.

What do I do? What would your advice have been? Uh to get him assessed and to get him out of the house.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

How do you do that? How do you do that? And I’m I’m asking like very honestly, how do you how do you do that with a 32-year-old? How do you you can call a PET team, a psychiatric emergency team um which is typically um uh a police officer, a specially trained police officer, and um a psychologist or a a a social worker, somebody um who can do um uh what we call an evaluation for a 5150, which is a 72-hour involuntary hold.

Um, so that would be, you know, and you know, and what we know about 5150 is a danger to self, danger to others, or grave disability, meaning they can’t provide food, clothing, and shelter for themselves or when provided to them.

Um, but if somebody’s saying petrified, it’s like, look, be safe.

Be safe there.

The parents aren’t the ones who are who are doing the drugs.

And and petrified, it’s not just like I don’t feel comfortable.

It’s I’m petrified.

That’s a strong word.

Very strong word.

and Iscicle Oxu from Turkey uh gifting 50 Survive the Survivor memberships.

We really uh appreciate it and I love this comment.

Uh thank you for the free membership.

I’m obsessed with the show.

Um thank you.

Appreciate it.

Uh we do have the best guests.

If you’re just tuning in because we have a lot of new viewers.

We do this Monday through Thursday.

We’ve got a panel show, The Best Guests in True Crime, and it is not just a tagline.

It is our reality.

And then uh Fridays, it’s me and my mom, 100 pm Eastern.

and uh we mix it up.

She’s a licensed therapist, child holocaust survivor who gives me a hard time, hence surviving the survivor.

And uh this past Friday, we got into it.

And uh I think everyone was incredibly uncomfortable and wanted to get off, but somehow uh people watched and uh can’t believe that is our real relationship, but it is.

And I love my mom.

She’s awesome, but she uh can drive me up a wall at times, but I think that’s what uh parents have a tendency to do.

Now Rachel Fizz I will quickly get me Go ahead.

I knew Roger in here Joel for just a second.

You just said all the dynamics that go into parenting in children and the difficulty.

I would ask you what keeps you from from murdering your mother or your your father if he when he was alive.

What kept you from doing that? Uh, the joke answer is she would probably turn the knife on me and and do it to me before I could get to her.

But, um, no, I love my mother dearly.

Um, I absolutely love my mom.

But, uh, she’s she gives tough love.

My mother does not I’m curious what my mom would have done with me if I was uh like Nick Reiner because by the way, that’s she said Raj the reason we got into a a little brawl on on the podcast.

She said I have a little Nick Reiner in me.

that that’s what she said and then my OCD took over and I couldn’t let it go.

But I think it’s important I don’t try to present uh an Instagram view of the world on my podcast.

Uh we have real conversations.

We argue.

Carmen and I mix it up.

She tells me to go f myself every once in a while like every other day.

But um feisty and so are you.

Two feisty cats will put them in a box and they’ll attack each other.

We we hash it out.

Uh the old fashioned.

you know, but I love my mom and my mom’s honestly probably one of the most optimistic people I know.

Um, almost bordering on, you know, sociopathic.

She’s so optimistic.

And, uh, I don’t know.

I also, you know, I learned in I wrote a book, same title, Survive the Survivor.

I learned that, uh, a lot of this, I think, is embedded in my DNA now.

A lot of the stuff that she experienced as a child Holocaust survivor.

So, I think a lot of that is embedded.

And uh you know I think that probably you know not all circumstances but um I’m curious you know the dynamics which we will find out more of in the Riner family.

I’m sure it’s not easy and it’s not an excuse but I’m sure it is not easy being the grandchild and the child of these two mega comedic icons in Hollywood.

There’s a certain pressure associated with it.

And I’m sure uh Nick Reiner was feeling that on some level.

If he wasn’t, I’d be shocked.

But back to the original thing here, Rachel, which is Rob Riner and Michelle Riner both experienced incredible fear ahead of these murders.

Is everything that we’re hearing now, could it all potentially come into play in a potential trial? In other words, could we down the road hear evidence that the Riners were petrified leading up to this crime that he is alleged of that Nick is alleged of? I I think we could I mean I think that’s where the witnesses that knew them best where they were told that um where the other children come in.

I think all of that will come in.

I think they will have a voice in the trial in how they were feeling um even though they’re not able to speak for themselves.

And I think that is probably going to cut both ways.

So both the prosecution and the defense are going to argue that that supports their position.

So the prosecution will argue that Nick Reiner knew what he was doing.

He had, you know, scared his parents.

All these things.

um that he knew the difference between right and wrong.

And the defense will argue that they’re them being petrified would possibly mean that he was a loose cannon, that he they didn’t know where, you know, his he was erratic and they didn’t know what he’d be doing and that he was out of control.

So, I think we’re going to get that evidence in and both sides are going to argue that it supports their case.

Yeah.

And Raj, what is and and Dr.

Dbor, I’ll have you jump on this, too.

I mean, what does it tell you that um, you know, leading up to this party, leading up to these alleged murders here, that basically the family seemed to be in absolute turmoil, that they were crying out, that they were petrified, that they were scared? It was kind of like um a cry for help.

Do you usually see a cry for help precede a traumatic event with someone like this in your family or elsewhere, or does it just sneak up on you? I I think we see it in hindsight, right? Um because we in that moment and when it’s in your own family, we’re we’re not very objective with our own family because there’s a lot of emotions that are involved.

You know, professionals can see it from that distance.

But um you know it I I think it attests to that there was some level of decompensation that was going on whether it was drug use whether it was you know a psychotic episode who knows what it was.

Um we don’t know.

I mean there’s no way to know at this moment what was going on.

So, but what we can say is like, you know, if if you listen to what was being said at Conan O’Brien’s party the night before, he, you know, he was being weird, whatever that means.

He was, you know, asking people if they were famous, not because he’s entitled, but because he was being weird and he wasn’t picking up on the social cues that that, you know, an average person would in in that moment.

So, again, there was some level of decompensation that was happening that preceded this.

What that was, we don’t know yet.

Uh Ed Gurr says, “This case will never go to trial.

” Uh and then the COE letting everyone know.

Sorry, Roger.

Just cut you off.

STS is a pet friendly show.

We are absolutely pet friend.

What’s the name of your cat? Oh, Adam, I need to get a cat.

If I can get a cat, you won’t cut me off, Joel.

Dr.

Boy, what is the name of that cat? He’s actually sweeter.

My dog is Johnny Carson.

This cat is named Roarshock.

We call her and my dog is named Cup.

My dog is named Reesei Cup.

That ought to tell you that.

It’s one of my favorite uh candies.

One of the best ever made.

Uh Raj, on a serious and very very sad note.

Um we talked about a little bit earlier, but I mean Jake and Romy here have got to be just reeling.

And they’ve got another sibling, Tracy, who was adopted by Rob Ryder.

Now, she’s, I think, 61, so there’s obviously a huge She was Penny Marshall’s child.

But Jake and Romy, the biological children, um, [Music] what do they need to do now? I mean, is there even an answer to that? I I I have no idea how I would go on if my sibling murdered my parents.

Like, where do you There’s no amount of money.

There’s no amount of celebrity.

As a matter of fact, those are at least the celebrities got to make it a million times worse because everyone’s in your business.

But how would you counsel them right now? Professional grief therapy is what they need.

So, somebody that has experience and success specifically with grief work and they are they going to have to go through the grief of the loss of their parents? Yes.

and also the grief of the issues with their their brother which I think they saw coming.

I don’t think it was a wow I can’t believe it to them.

I think they they were at a place of I believe it too followed by trauma therapy right oh yeah you start with your grief right and and how Dr.

How long do you I mean how do you know like how long do you go to trauma therapy? How long do you go to grief therapy? Is this the rest of their lives? Like how do you cope with this? I don’t know.

I mean it it just it depends on their own mental health, their own personality characteristics, the type of support systems they have.

um if they have any other co-occurring mental health conditions, which by the way, there are reports, I’m not going to get into any specifics, that one of the two children does suffer from uh you know, depression and and mental illness.

So, um I don’t know.

I mean, that’s got to be a huge factor, right? Yeah.

I mean, a family was destroyed in in one night, just completely destroyed, that that’s going to run a toll on somebody for the rest of their life.

Will they become functioning again? Hopefully.

Yeah, absolutely.

But but yeah, this is this is a family that’s been destroyed.

And so much of it is going to have go to is going to be the relationship the therapeutic relationship between the provider and these kids.

Yeah.

When if there is a great connection, then it should shorten the element of the need for therapy, right? But if they struggle finding someone that they feel connected to, uh, boy, they could be doing this the rest of their life.

Yeah.

No offense to Dr.

Tabbor or Raj, but I’ve never met a normal therapist in my life because my friend’s parents were all absolutely nuts.

But um, have you guys forgotten Sorry, I’ve seen your mother.

She’s not nuts.

No, I didn’t say her.

I said her friends.

Have you guys forgotten? Have you guys forgotten what Nick actually did? Multiple sharp.

I don’t think anyone forgot what he did.

Uh throat slashed in their bedroom.

Please remember the victims.

Uh I think we said it numerous times today.

The victims uh are are the children who we were just talking about and obviously uh Rob and Michelle.

And I think to some extent Nick might be a victim as well.

I just don’t know that we know um the whole story here.

But Rachel, let me ask you um another legal question.

One of the, it might have been you, but one of the legal pundits that was on the show basically said Allan Jackson now as part of his job has to create this entire picture of Nick Reiner’s life from basically birth to now and what has happened.

Um, but if you find out, and we already heard stories about at the age of 11, Rob Reiner had to bear hug Nick Reiner to try to control his tantrums.

If it’s discovered that there were these behavioral issues, does that come into play in a court of law from a very young age or is it only from a certain point on? I think they will go back in time and they are going to set mental health issues as the reason for the addiction.

Um, and schizophrenia being later diagnosed or diagnosed now.

Um, but all of it being interrelated such that addiction isn’t the headline, but mental health and, you know, kind of a precursor to what I think they’re going to make out is um, you know, insanity.

So, and I think schizophrenia is going to be where they rely on that.

Um, so yes, they’re going to go deep in that there were all of these signs prior to him being an addict because addict’s not going to get them anywhere.

Um, as it relates to their defense, it may, you know, but it’s going to be unavoidable uh throughout the trial.

So, they are going to have mental health lead whereas addiction is going to lead on the prosecution side.

But to go deep into the mental health, they’re going to have to go deep into his life.

A and what at what percentage do you put the possibility of this case actually going to trial at 10%, 30%, 50%, if you had to guess? Well, I think all of this is again going to be positioning that win, which is him in a mental health facility, not him in a traditional prison.

um and how they can best position that win is how it’s going to go down.

So Nathan Hawkman has indicated that the death penalty is not off the table.

That’s a pretty unusual statement here in the state of California because that’s not really how we do things at all and haven’t done it that way for many, many years.

So that’s got to come off the table um for this not to go to trial.

And I think the recommendation by the prosecutors has to be a um a mental health facility, not traditional prison.

And once those two things come down, my guess is this doesn’t go to trial.

Now, if the prosecutors take a hard line and keep death penalty on or even just traditional prison on, um I I think that this could go to trial because he won’t have a lot to lose.

I think no matter how you slice it, he is not out walking around in the public anytime soon.

Oh man, this story is just tragic.

You look at the pictures of these uh siblings and it’s absolutely absolutely uh tragic.

We do have just a we we showed this before, but I’m curious for uh Raj and Eldiko.

This is a video of him right apparently right before committing the crimes.

This is a surveillance video.

Um, look, very, you know, unless you’re a trained law enforcement officer, there’s not that much to see in something like this.

But Dr.

Tabori, just wonder, I mean, he doesn’t look like he’s, you know, on such This is apparently before the crimes here, uh, but it doesn’t look like he’s so drugged out that he’s not, he looks like he’s walking with intention.

Uh, he’s 6’3, 230, by the way.

He’s a big dude like his dad.

But I don’t know.

Does anything stand out to you about the video? No, not at all.

I’ve seen this video, too.

Um, I mean, he doesn’t look like he’s under the influence of anything, or if he is, it’s not a whole lot of anything.

I mean, he’s not stumbling.

He’s he is walking with intent.

He’s walking in a straight line.

Um, so yeah, it just it’s just Yeah, it is creepy knowing that this is prior, they’re saying, to the killings, but Raj, anything bounce out to you watching this? Yeah.

Yeah, he he looks mentally ill.

Raj, imagine Raj is the trying to get a job here.

You know, is he? No.

Is he Is he attacking anybody? No.

But you can’t nor anybody else go.

Oh, yeah.

He’s got that mental illness going.

Well, Alan Allen Jackson’s calling Alan Jackson’s calling Roger Rhodess right now.

I want a 10% I want a 10% commission.

Uh, another um fascinating panel.

We do have the best guests in all true crime.

We were talking off air about how it’s a it’s a wacky Monday before the holidays.

We’re all a little bit loopy.

Tomorrow, regular time for the show, 7 Eastern.

going to follow this all week and um 12:30 on Christmas Eve day because on Christmas Eve, who the hell is going to be watching this? Nobody.

So, uh we’ll do it and then we’re out of here till after the new year.

But we’re going to have all sorts of programming including what I recorded today, which is actually really interesting, a panel of three discussing what is the number one true crime story of all time and why.

That will be available to you uh while we are not on the air during the holiday break.

Um, not guilty by reason of insanity.

Rachel Fizz, for those who do not know, now you know.

She’s a criminal defense attorney out of the greater Los Angeles area and she’s been uh jumping in quite a bit with the story.

So, we appreciate it.

Um, how tough is it to just get to that point of not guilty by reason of insanity and your final legal thoughts uh leading in here? I think they have a long road and this is it again I think it’s going to start with competency and they are going to baby step how they proceed um and how they if it gets to trial whether they use the not guilty by reason of insanity there uh but again they I don’t know that they have much else but we’re just at the very beginning of figuring out how it is that Nick Reiner would or would not know right from wrong uh at the time of these actions that he allegedly committed.

So, so much more to come out and it does look like Allan Jackson’s team will leak it out little by little.

So, the public will be given uh different slices of what to know throughout this time.

So, a lot a lot here and it’s just hideously tragic.

Yeah, it sure is.

Uh and people are yelling at us for laughing.

Uh my mother always talks about the importance of humor.

That’s how she made it through World War II.

No one’s laughing at any of the people.

I think it’s uh just a lot of heaviness is in the air and maybe that’s an outlet.

I have an adult child who has mental illness and is also an addict.

That person is also brilliant and has a very deep heart.

Roger Rhodess, he is a family therapist out of Greenville, South Carolina.

He also works uh in the prison and jail system or at least he used to.

But Raj uh these are not mutually exclusive.

You can be you can have an adult child who is suffering mental illness who is an addict but is also incredibly brilliant and very very kind and warm.

I’ll go so far as to say even if they kill somebody doesn’t necessarily make them um a horrible human being.

You know like people people snap and break.

So uh your final thoughts here you man this is very heavy stuff.

So, uh, you know, I I think Rachel’s hit the nail on the head with putting him in a hospital, putting him in the hospital.

I think they’ll there’s more of a direction.

What good is it going to do to put him in the prison system? But what good could happen if we look to treat someone who’s incredibly damaged? That is that.

So, I think that makes a lot of sense.

I think that’ll be the negotiation and that’ll be the way it goes, you know.

Uh, and one of the things I without a doubt want to lay out there is one word, safety.

Yeah.

And Raj, look at this.

Uh, look at this.

Your world oy Annie soundwave weaves.

I have an adult daughter with severe mental illness.

She’s done really well to get help for herself.

It is very hard.

I mean Raj, you know, I think so many people relate to this because so many people have family members who are, like I said earlier, either in, you know, drug addicted andor mentally ill.

I mean, this is a real problem in this world.

Right.

Right.

Without a doubt.

And the pressures break people and we’re seeing it in all states in America.

And this this is just part of it.

and to have mental mental illness and addiction uh operating together.

You can see what it leads to and how dangerous it is.

So, it’s so important that both the the client and the parents, the family are all safe that that it it’s it’s not a bad thing to put people in treatment for their whole life.

I mean, I think sometimes we think about the the 1800s and when people were mentally ill and put in.

That is not the same.

That is not how it’s worked with.

And there are a lot of great places that are doing great work and having great process uh and progress with people who are not well and addicted to substances.

Uh final comment here.

We’ll have a few more, I guess.

So, not a final final comment, but I’m a retired judge, says Georgia.

The worst outcomes result from parents who rescue their children from consequences of bad behavior or crimes.

Rich or poor parents will both do it.

Their children are repeat offenders.

Um, I guess it’s a harsh but maybe true statement.

Dr.

Oiko Tibbori, psychologist out of the Los Angeles area.

Uh, and she has helped us uh will continue to help us on this case.

Uh, Dr.

Dr.

Dbori, thank you for your insight.

Uh, this is just one of these stories that is absolutely brutal from all angles.

Uh, you got to feel for the parents, you got to feel for the siblings in a lot of ways.

Some people will disagree with me.

I feel for Nick Reiner.

Um, it’s just an absolute mess and a and a real uh tangled web here of of horrors that culminated in the deaths of Rob and Michelle uh Reiner.

um just your final thoughts here about everything we uh discussed tonight.

Yeah, look again this is a very sad case and I think that we have to be um you know very cautious on um looking at you know really humanizing this situation, right? Um, you know, these are all human beings.

Um, um, and we have to kind of do a wait and see.

And this isn’t like a a black or white issue.

This isn’t good or bad.

This is very nuanced.

This is has multiple levels um, to address.

And and I understand I I have a family member um, an extended family member who is in the legal system as a result of mental illness and co-occurring substance use.

So I understand I I watched it what it does to families um on a personal level as well.

So this is a very sad case and I think that we have to just look at it from a human perspective.

Yeah.

Apparently Dr.

Drew is going around saying that it was methinduced psychosis.

Uh Dr.

Dory, I’m just curious uh what you think.

I mean I don’t know how he can say that publicly and so definitively unless he knows personally that this guy was on meth.

I mean, how else would you be able to say something like that? I I don’t think you can unless Dr.

Drew knows something that we don’t know.

And I mean, Dr.

Drew knows the stuff.

Um, but who knows if it was methinduced or anything induced.

It could be, but we don’t know.

Yeah.

Uh, well, the answers are going to continue to probably trickle out.

Um, this story arguably uh could be one of the biggest true crime stories um that we ever discuss.

This has, I’ve said it before, it’s a perfect storm of celebrity, parasite, drug addiction, mental health potentially.

I mean, there’s a lot of things colliding all at once.

And uh first and foremost, uh my thoughts, uh people I’m thinking about the most right now are Romy and Jake and obviously Rob and Michelle who are no longer with us, but I know Romy has a birthday coming up two days after Christmas or three days after Christmas.

I think she turns 28 and uh I think it’s going to be absolutely brutal.

So, uh, let’s keep her, uh, in our thoughts there.

And, uh, I’m pulling for her and I’m pulling for Jake.

And, uh, I’m pulling for Nick in a way.

And uh I hope that uh at some point uh it’s not going to happen anytime soon, but I hope at some point the three siblings uh and then there’s Tracy also, but the three siblings we’re talking about here um can see each other and talk to each other and somehow, you know, come to not an understanding but have some sort of reconciliation amongst the three of them uh on some level.

So, let’s hope that that can happen.

We’re back tomorrow night with a 7:00 show uh Wednesday 12:30 and then we’re back after the new year.

Huge thanks to Dr.

Roger Rhodess, criminal defense attorney Rachel Fizz, Dr.

Eldico Toro, love you Oklahoma, Greenville, South Carolina, Los Angeles, and uh let’s get justice here for Rob and Michelle Riner.

Love you all.

See you guys tomorrow and guess stick around.

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