Jordan Peterson on Masculinity, Gender Roles, and the Pay Gap: A Candid Debate

In a candid and often heated exchange, Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson addressed questions about masculinity, gender equality, and the controversial gender pay gap. Known for his forthright opinions, Peterson defended his belief that men must “grow the hell up,” while rejecting certain feminist claims about systemic oppression.

Peterson began with his signature theme: the need for personal responsibility. “There’s nothing uglier than an old infant,” he said. “People who don’t grow up don’t find the meaning that sustains them through difficult times. They’re left bitter, resentful, without purpose, and of no use to themselves or anyone else.”

While his message was not originally targeted at men, Peterson admitted that much of his audience — particularly on YouTube — is male. “About 80% of my viewers are men,” he noted, attributing the skew partly to YouTube’s male-dominated user base. Still, he sees the resonance of his ideas as evidence that young men are “starving for encouragement” and guidance on why maturity and responsibility matter.

What’s in it for women?

Asked why women should care about his call for male maturity, Peterson was blunt: “What sort of partner do you want? An overgrown child or someone competent and capable?” He argued that strong, competent men are better partners and more capable of building reciprocal relationships.

Peterson acknowledged that some women choose weaker partners because they can dominate them, but called this a “suboptimal solution” that often leads to long-term dissatisfaction for both parties.

The gender pay gap

The conversation shifted to the gender pay gap, with the interviewer citing UK statistics showing women earning on average 9% less than men. Peterson disputed the idea that the gap is solely due to gender discrimination. “If you’re a social scientist worth your salt, you never do a univariate analysis,” he argued. “You break it down by age, occupation, interests, personality. One trait — agreeableness — plays a role. Agreeable people, who are more compassionate and polite, tend to earn less. On average, women score higher on agreeableness than men.”

While acknowledging that prejudice exists, Peterson maintained that it accounts for “a much smaller proportion of the variance in the pay gap than radical feminists claim.” He emphasized that the existence of a gap does not automatically make it unfair; the causes must be understood.

When pressed on whether he tells women to ask for raises, Peterson said he has coached many women in assertiveness training, helping them negotiate higher pay — sometimes tripling their wages over five years. “You have to be smart, conscientious, and tough,” he said.

Equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome

Peterson repeatedly stressed the difference between equality of opportunity — which he strongly supports — and equality of outcome, which he rejects. Citing Scandinavian countries, he noted that even in societies with the highest levels of gender equality, men and women still choose different careers in large numbers. “If you leave men and women to make their own choices, you will not get equal outcomes,” he said, pointing to the overrepresentation of women in nursing and men in engineering as an example.

He warned that enforcing equality of outcome requires “tremendous social pressure and tyranny,” something he believes is undesirable and counterproductive.

Women in leadership

On the scarcity of women leading top companies, Peterson suggested that fewer women choose such roles because of the extreme demands and sacrifices required. “To get to the top, you have to work 70 or 80 hours a week, specialize in one thing, and sacrifice almost everything else,” he said. “Some women — and some men — simply don’t want that life.”

When challenged about systemic barriers, Peterson admitted competition is fierce at the top. “The men you’re competing with aren’t going to roll over and say, ‘Please take the position.’ It’s all-out warfare.”

Do women have to act like men to succeed?

The interviewer pressed Peterson on whether women must adopt traditionally “male” traits to succeed in competitive environments. Peterson replied that traits like toughness and assertiveness are useful for anyone seeking advancement. “I teach women how to negotiate, say no, and not be easily pushed around,” he said. “Those are necessary skills if you want to succeed.”

The interviewer suggested that male-dominated workplaces could adapt by valuing more traditionally female traits, removing the need for women to “get their sharp elbows out” just to be paid equally. Peterson responded that determining whether two jobs are truly equal is complex and that market forces — not just gender — shape pay structures.

The role of choice

Peterson also highlighted the role of personal choice in career paths. Women, he said, often choose professions that are lower-paying but more personally rewarding, or they take time out for family. This, he argued, partly explains the pay gap and is not necessarily a problem unless society seeks to impose uniform outcomes.

He also noted that many women face a “career-family crisis” between ages 28 and 32, when they feel pressure to establish both career and family before fertility declines. “Women have to get the major pieces of their life together faster than men,” he observed.

A call for fairness, not sameness

Throughout the discussion, Peterson returned to his core distinction: equal opportunity is good; enforced equal outcomes are not. “Men and women aren’t the same and won’t be the same,” he said. “That doesn’t mean they can’t be treated fairly. It means fairness isn’t the same as sameness.”

While his critics accuse him of reinforcing barriers to women’s advancement, Peterson insists his goal is to help individuals — male or female — navigate reality as it is, not as they might wish it to be.

The exchange ended much as it began: with a recognition that men need to grow up, women want competent partners, and society benefits when individuals — regardless of gender — develop their capabilities to the fullest. For Peterson, that’s the foundation of a life worth living.